To some readers this will be a trivial post, while to others who have experienced a few of the annoying events below , it is a chance to clear the air and in doing so, create a safer flight deck atmosphere. In short, do these things get right up your nose, but either because of your good manners or well worn patience you grit your teeth and grin and bear it:

The Hoverer who just as the aircraft rotates he ever so subtly reaches across your line of sight to casually rest his hand on the landing gear lever so that in a fraction of an instant he can slam the handle up as you form the first syllable of "gear up"

The same character rest his finger on the heading selector for several seconds in eager anticipation of ATC saying "On reaching 1500 turn right.

Same character casually takes out the before start checklist a minute or so before you call for it and holds in it up for you to admire ready for your request of Before Start checklist. Also known to have his hand behind the thrust levers as you are about to open up to 40 percent N1 and as soon as you press the TOGA button he shoves open the thrust levers under your hand and keeps it there until VR - meanwhile completely oblivious to the fact a perfectly serviceable internal friction or similar device ensures the levers will not slide backwards. And that if you suddenly close the thrust levers (for whatever reason) you do not have the time to ask him to kindly remove his mitt lest it be chopped half off with bleeding over the quadrant as his hand is caught between the aft edge of the thrust levers and the start levers in the idle detent..

Has a distracting habit of sniffing every 30 seconds or so - audible only when the engines are not running. But sniffing, all the same because you can see his nostrils distend as he sniffs if you happen to be looking that way..

Those nervous nellies who ever - so - slowly creep one or both hands on or a thousandth of an inch from the control wheel as you approach V1 or as you are about to flare for landing. Or the captain that sneaks his hands behind the thrust levers on short final to "adjust" the power even though you are PF with hands on the thrust levers. Don't you just feel like slamming the throttles shut to catch him off guard?

Turns around to start a conversation with a drop dead gorgeous flight attendant (male or female depending on personal preference ) as you are talking to the passengers on the PA. This destroys your concentration and you lose track of what you are saying.

You hand over control during an appropriate moment in flight, suggesting he practice his hand flying and he says no thanks hand flying is not for me..

Has the after landing drills completed in a blur of multi-fingered switch flicking skill while you are still at 60 knots and speed brake not yet selected down.

Ditto above for after take off scan completed while flaps still retracting and check list quivering like a Grenadier's salute as it is removed from its holder and pulled out at the present arms position.

Those that are seemingly unaware that their leg is furiously oscillating up and down in nervous apprension. Others who rest their size 10's on their own rudder pedals as you begin the take off run and out of the corner of your eye you can see his knees moving in concert with your own rudder pedal movements inputs.. and you feel like roaring ""Oose flyin' this bloody aircraft?"

Faint wiffs of BO or boozy breath, oniony or garlic breath..

Those nervous nellies who change the weather radar settings without checking with you first and worse still don't put them back as they were.

And so on. Minor irritations but when you are crewed with one of these characters for the next four days or next 12 hours then minor irritations can blow up into an almighty annoyance.

Not a bad post subject if approached tactfully.

Listing all the things (here) that bother you gives pause to others at least to understand what may be a bother.

Many are minor and best suffered in silence for a single flight.

Some are best handled then and there.

remember, what's irritating to you may be acceptable in general.

The more major common distractions need to be addressed in training.

communication skills are paramont they can not be addressed by whining.

Specific suggestions by other pilots might be helpful here.

This thread started life in Tech Log and didn't get much in the way of a useful response.

With apologies to those posters whose posts were not too far out of order, I have slashed and burned to give the thread another run here ...

Certainly annoying and potentially hazardous behaviour. When I was in the right seat I flew with a character who apparently did not realise that there is limited nosewheel steering available on the FO's side through the rudder pedals.


I did not realise what he was doing until he did it on the second leg I flew of a multi day trip. After 'handing over control' to me when lining up I was having a hell of a time keeping it straight while accelerating and had almost full pedal deflection (I was thinking is there a strong crosswind I didn't notice)
then suddenly the force I was opposing was released and I swerved, overcorrecting for the lack of this but straightened it out again and took off normally.


Stealing a milliseconds glance over to his side I noticed him taking his hand off the Tiller. Realising the reason for my directional difficulties on this and my previous leg I waited until we were established in cruise flight then discussed and resolved the matter with him. I think he was so clueless he thought he was 'helping'



I strongly recommend discussing your most serious issues with this person. The right approach will nearly always resolve matters, if not is there a mechanism where he can be 'counselled' by his Peers without involving management.



The worst thing to do is sit there and 'stew' it's not good for you but worse it's not safe.

I have been flying with such people with irritating habits (doing the things already mentioned) ever since I started mutli-crew flying.

I am also trying to work how to best deal with them and the moment I just suffer in silence.

Unfortunately some of these Captains think they are so good, think they they know it all and think they are always right. I fear if I say something to them, it will have an opposite effect and make them even more irritating to fly with.

For example, they might see me as challenging them. Then they will continue to reinforce their irriating habits and introduce more to show that they will never give in you as they are always right and you are always wrong. They are the boss and they want to know about it. They will continue to fly the way they want and never give in to anyone. You question or challenge them and they will further reinforce there authority to do such irritating things in the flightdeck.

I have seen other pilots have full on arguments and shouting matches, which probably started off by the fact that one pilot was irritated by the habits off another.

Sometimes it easier to suffer in silence I think and keep the peace, even though it may be very painful.

It would, perhaps, be useful to know from which perspective you are experiencing these mannerisms. The left or the right seat.

Suggesting to a Captain that he practice his hand flying is probably not the best way to make friends and influence people!

If it is the Captain who is taking out the before start checklist before you ask for it then maybe that's a subtle hint for you to get a wriggle on, remember he is running the show with your help and things happen when he wants them to not vice versa. If it is the F/O who is being premature with the checklist then you tell him to wait until you ask for them.

Depending on your SOP's and who keeps their hand on the throttles during take off then it could be a wise Captain who keeps his hand behind them. Have you ever had a minor problem, one which is perfectly safe to fly with, approaching V1 only for the nervous, overreacting, F/O to try and close the throttles. "Any other problem bring to my attention and I (the Captain) will decide whether to stop or go". It's in the brief isn't it?!

Oose responsible for it?

And that doesn't even merit a response. Oh bugger.

Few people will read this thread and not recognise and sympathise with one or more of the traits already mentioned. Unfortunetaly it is all a part of lifes rich tapestry to a large extent. What irritates one person, will go completely un-noticed by someone else. To that extent a lot of the problem is also in the perception.

One of the disadvantages of this occupation is that you tend to be locked in a very small room for sometimes very large portions of a day, with someone who (rarely) might otherwise cause you to self harm or consider homicide. I suspect this is why airlines look for people who display all those CRM skills that they now teach and assess on every relevant occaision. On the positive side you aren't likely to have to spend more than a few days in such annoying company.

What you can do about irritations largely depends on your negotiating skills and seniority. Some people are very adept at conveying a message that both gets through and isn't confrontational or provocative. Likewise others rely on their authority to terminate a practice they find irritating. For those on the receiving end, their own day will come if they survive long enough. There are some blurred divisions between keenness and overconfidence, or relaxed and comotose etc. Whatever standardisation you impose, or however many CRM courses you attend, as long as human beings are still involved that will always be the case. The best you can hope for is a better understanding of the human condition, and a better self awareness.

In the meantime, God help that F/O who sniffs every 8 seconds of the day, if I have to fly with them again tommorow! :ugh:

I fly with guys who do that, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I personally am not in a hurry to turn so don't do it but I am certainly not bothered by others doing it. I would be interested to know what it is that bothers you about this action.

Is there a chance that you guys are reading the wrong message into this action? Do you feel like the F/O is trying to push you along or perhaps insinuating that "he is ready so why aren't you?"
Picking up the checklist, or putting it in a certain position in the FD, is a fairly common way of ensuring that you don't forget to do it and the person holding the checklist is often doing it for no other reason than to ensure that they themselves don't forget it.
lol , sorry but that is funny. If a captain did that to me I would not decline, I would hand fly it til the cows came home but seriously...unless you are actually conducting line training or the F/O has spacifically asked for it then thats a bit rich.
surely thats a breach of SOP's and you can just ask him/her if they remember what the trigger is for commencing the drills, they'l get the idea.
I would have thought it was SOP's to follow the movements of the rudder pedals. I think the last two airlines I was with made mention of the fact that the NFP should have their feet lightly enough on the pedals so that the FP can't feel it during all high thrust phases of flight.
again....it should be in the SOP's....this guys sounds like he hasn't read them.
WTF? Are you serious?

Here is one that I hate:

The one in the other seat (left or right) saying "1,000 to go" when it is actually 1,200 ft to go and it is my task to say it, not his. If I miss it, I appreciate they say the call out, but I would appreciate even more if they wait till we are 900 ft to go.

:)

Well, tbh, I have to say a good proportion of the things on the OP's list are really pretty minor, and if they cause serious irritation that says something about the person being irritated.

Some of the other behaviours can be caused by a variety of reasons, such as previous captain's demanding it! e.g. if some one keeps bollocking their FO: "You should be ahead of the game! I don't want to sit there waiting for you to dig the checklist out. You know I'm going to ask for it, so have it ready!", then don't be surprised if the same guy flies with you and is holding the checklist ready ;)

Likewise things like following through. I used to fly a turboprop that was 'challenging' in cross wind landings. It only had a tiller on the captain's side, which meant that when the captain was landing there would have to be a transfer of the control column to the F/O. Experienced Captains would be in no great rush to do the transfer - the aircraft was easier to control if you kept active on the elevator and ailerons until the speed was well off, you then handed control of the column to the F/O, paused to make sure sure they maintained it in the correct position (rather than putting it straight to neutral - a common response from the low experienced, inspite of briefing it). However, direct some entry captains had a tendency to dive for the tiller too early, and just let go of the control column without waiting for the f/o to take it over! Scary stuff. As a consequence, most f/os developed the habit of following through on the control column from touchdown.

And microburst, yes, I've seen that as well. One guy in particular... a senior training captain actually, the 1,000 to go call was like a competition for him. He HAD to say it first. So he would routingely call it 2 or 300 feet early. It used to annoy me a bit tbh, so I just started saying "Oh? I made that 13 hundreds to go, are we both on the same subscale" or similar words ;)
pb

Never seen that piece of priceless wisdom in manufacturer's FCOM's. If for some life threatening split second reason you need to take over the control of the rudder pedals or any other flight controls when the other pilot is the PF, I doubt if you could hardly measure the time difference between having hands and feet resting all over the other guy's handling of the controls and actually moving the same hands and feet back on them where operational conditions warrant.

As PNF, your feet should be placed on the floor - close to, if you wish, but certainly not touching the rudder pedals and your hands on your knees or lap. It is totally unnecessary and occasionally counter-productive because no matter how lightly you rest your shoes on the rudder pedals it can be often felt by the PF through his own pedals and interpretated as slight binding and would understandably provoke a "WTF are you up to" reaction. As far as both pilots having their hands on the controls during take off, flying or approaching to land. Again totally superfluous and is only done in exciting aeroplane movies. Of course, some pilots love watching exciting aeroplane movies....

Neither, was talking about SOP's.
Maan! thats an authoritive statement, wish I was as certain of myself as you are TM :)
I totally agree with you.

Does anyone have any ideas as to the advantages of following on the rudders (lightly enough as to not be a nuisance) during take-off and maybe landing? I'm just wondering why 2 of the 3 airlines I've worked for thought it advantageous enough to mandate it when clearly it is a rediculous idea.
Regards,
Framer

But what if the captain is being premature with the checklist ? :eek: Can an FO tell such to a captain without upsetting him ? :confused:


I have not seen it written anywhere in our manuals. However, what if I did the same to this particular other pilot now (who places his feet on rudder pedals as I am flying), would he like it ? Should I give it a try when I fly with this pilot again and do to him what he does me ?

If he says anything, I can just say "I picked up these techniques from you :p"

This is so :mad: annoying to me, a race to do "my" standard calls prematurely !!

I don't know why some people do it, but maybe I should do it to them, and soon 1,000' to go calls will be made at 1,500 to go :p, or maybe I should be a smart ass and respond "negative, my altimeter still says 1,200 to go" :p

I got a captain who every on every flight uses the statement "In accordance with the book..." (when he does something) many times. He is probably showing off how well he knows the book and likes to fly by it. However, other times he will do things (small trivial things and absolutley no compromise to comfort, efficiency and safety) completely contrary to the book. I just in suffer in silence and think to myself what a :mad: hypocrite this person is :ugh:

How do I deal with this ?

Do I start using the same statements when I speak to him ? Emphasising "In accordance with the book...(hey look at me....I am doing this....)".

or

Do I question him if he doesn't do something in accordance with the book. "I thought you like to fly by the book as you use the statement all the time but now you are doing something contrary to it ?" :eek:

or

"Sorry, the book says different " when he does not follow it and throw the book at him !!:eek:

I am sure that statement would not go down well with him but should I question him and point out what a hypocrite he is ? Like do we do things by the book or not ? :confused:

Where is that reply that someone made about the captain running the show and allowing him to run it how he wants ? Does this give him the right to deviate from SOP ? :ugh:

I have to strongly disagree here and I believe it this line of thought amongst some captains that make them act in such an irritating way. They think it is their right.

I always thought the Pilot Flying / Handling Pilot ran the show (Capt or FO who was PF for that sector), and the captain only had the final responsibility / final say ? :confused:

I believe the Airbus has been set up this way so all normal ops can be done from either seat (FO and Capt), including engine start and taxi. This way the PF can fully run the show from the right hand seat if the FO is the PF.

I think it's a very fine line between being a good diligent captain who likes run a very professional operation and a domineering control freak. Some captains like to be in control far too much (they think that's there job), and I might as well just sit in back and let them do it all. :ok:

Well actually it is BUT it should be done in such a way that no one gets irritated and one has to have a very sound reason to diverge from SOPs.

There is also the possibility that in the cases mentioned above the captain knows he is annoying you but you have already pissed him off a lot and he is deliberately winding you up, not good CRM for sure, but it happens.

There again, I've flown with some FOs who are just too precious for words!:)

Our operations manual say something along the lines "...SOP's are to be followed at all times...divergence is not permitted" :confused:

Our SOPs include extensive detail about (for both PF and PNF ) :
- standard calls / who says what and when etc.
- use of checklists / when and how to use / who calls for it etc.
- scans / flows / sequence of scans etc.
- who presses what button and when etc.

You might think little things might not be big issues worth worrying about, but still it is irritating to me (and others) when the other pilot can't even do these little things as per SOP. Its all these things together which make up an the entire operation, and if nothing is done correctly (by the book), then the entire operation itself is rather poor.

It won't be long before I develop bad habits from these captains and might get a bad score on a line check one day thanks to them :ugh:

Sure, don't let little things worry you, but as someone said, on a 12 hour sector or after several days with the same pilot..it does get just a little bit annoying.

John the Captain can't be premature with the checklist as things happen when he wants them too. It's a not so subtle hint that the First Officer should be ready by now. Remember it's his responsibility and if you push late because you haven't done the checks in time it is the Captain who has to justify it.

Conversely if you start pushing the Captain because you think things should be happening now then I would suggest that you are stepping out of line. Of course if it's obvious that he's forgotten something then you should point it out.

As far as having your feet on the rudder pedals. Our manual states that PNF should have his hands and feet on or near the controls at critical stages of flight but must ensure that he does not interfere with PF's inputs on the controls.

And the Captain has the authority to deviate from any SOP should he consider it necessary. Of course good CRM dictates that he notifies you what he's going to do and why, but he doesn't have to justify it to the F/O. However, if the F/O wishes to deviate from the SOP then he must justify it to the Captain who then has the final say.

I disagee with you here.

Here is a quote direct from the Airbus Flight Crew Training Manual :
This mentions nothing about the Captain reading it when he wants, they way you think it is. It says :
"THE PF REQUESTS..." (no mention of Capt here)
and not (as you believe) :
- "the Captain will offer..."
or "the Captain will always inititiate the checklist whether he be PF or PNF..."
or "the Captain (when PNF) will offer the checklist to the FO (who is PF) when the Captain wants..."

Those who question the wisdom of being lightly 'on' the controls with an inexperienced pilot handling have obviously never had the wrong rudder applied on an engine failure - I know a man who has - and the bank angle achieved at 200 feet was 'interesting' - past 90 degrees.

I recall my RAF QFI briefing me on my first night dual circuit "Its just like day flying really, except the controls are a bit heavier".

Chesty and BOAC I am enjoying your inputs as a blessed sigh of relief.


The longer you have been doing this job the more you are inclined to tolerate in silence.

I can't bear on average twenty or thirty intrusive point-scoring speedy-gonzalez "I've spotted something you haven't" mannerisms per sector demonstrated to me across the flight deck.

But I sit in silence.
Stroking my forehead.
My blood pressure steadily rising.
When will this agony end?:{

To those of you further on in your careers than I, perhaps nearing retirement, may I have some advice?

Does it get worse? How do you cope?

John, I don't think you should transfer blame onto a group of people you fly with, or anyone else for that matter. If you get a bad score on a line check it is you're responsibility and only you could have changed it. It's a pretty fundamentally important attitude to have with regard to flying planes.
:D Gold!

John the captain sets the pace and the tone of the flight deck 99% of the time.Some Captains are awesome at it and some are terrible.If they are good at it most F/O's won't even know that it is happening. It is a real skill and involves being aware of where your mate is up to and giving them enough room to do his/her job without getting behind, overloading them, or adding unneccisarily to their workload.
The other 1% is when the authority gradient is all out of wack and its bloody terrible....from either seat!
Tee Em Any ideas?
This is quite a good fun thread.
Framer