At no time did any one person state, "I have control". I would have thought that would have been a critical statement, showing leadership and setting the command structure for the emergency, and stopping the confusion over who was actually in control. Unfortunately, the pilot in the right seat, probably in panic, kept his side stick at the full back position for two more minutes. |
Before departure the captain had allotted the "leg" to the second officer (?) who was in the RH seat. Seemingly by default, the captain on leaving the cockpit for crew rest, handed over control to the junior pilot simply because it was his "leg." The real first officer who now replaced the captain in the LH seat, was clearly subordinate to the second officer purely because it was the second officer's "leg"
Surely, common sense should have dictated that before the captain left the other two up front on their own - especially since the weather radar showed storms brewing ahead- he should have nominated the first officer as temporarily in charge as PF since he occupied the captain's seat. As it turned out, the real first officer who occupied the captain's seat as PM sat on his arse and did nothing for fear of taking over control on the other guy's "leg" All he apparently did was to watch the second officer completely lose the plot even though it was obvious that the second officer was quickly out of his depth. The seemingly sacrosanct policy of a captain giving a co-pilot a "leg" then being reluctant of taking back the co-pilot's "leg" for fear of causing offence, is idiotic and may have been a contributing factor in the utter confusion that followed. |
Quote: At no time did any one person state, "I have control". I would have thought that would have been a critical statement, showing leadership and setting the command structure for the emergency, and stopping the confusion over who was actually in control. Actually, the pilot in the left seat (Robert) did just that, at 02:11:37, when he exclaimed "Commandes à gauche!" Unfortunately, the pilot in the right seat, probably in panic, kept his side stick at the full back position for two more minutes. My Airplane. Your Airplane. So, if one says "my airplane" or "controls left", and does not hear the response "your airplane" or "controls left", then shouldn't one repeat the process, or attempt to get the other to recognise they are panicking? (Please forgive me for posting, I am not an airline pilot, just a CPL, interested in this conversation) |
Originally Posted by Centaurus
handed over control to the junior pilot simply because it was his "leg." The real first officer who now replaced the captain in the LH seat, was clearly subordinate to the second officer purely because it was the second officer's "leg"
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We had two first officers out of sync with each other and anything that could have effectively woven a thread of commonality between them that they could have used to salvage the situation would have been priceless.
There is no logical reason I can see (not an Airbus pilot mind you) that tactile feedback between the joystick controls shouldn't be implemented and what seems significant evidence that it could only help. Can anybody tell me if I am reasoning fairly here? |
Having 'the leg' does not transfer command, so LHS was still 'Captain' and NOT 'subordinate'. |
The modern aircraft is now so clever, able and reliable that pilots have come to trust it. This trust runs from the manufacturer, through the airlines, their training departments right up to the line pilots. The trust, allied to control laws which prevent exceedances, means that very few crews will ever had to deal with an aircraft throwing a very basic "hissy fit". Simulator sessions will be dealing with complex failures involving hydraulic systems and their effect on LDA's, electrical system malfunctions, bleed problems and so forth.
Then, when we add prescriptive SOPs regarding autopilot usage we start ending up with pilots who forget how to fly. Then, when challenged, they revert to what they know and what has always worked for the last so many years. I regularly fly by hand, but I've witnessed first hand my own skills being degraded over time. I'm not as good as I used to be when I flew a simpler aircraft. Our SOPs (which are the manufacturer's) make the mouth music for hand flying so complicated that many choose to avoid it. I just get them wrong, but at least I'm having a bit of hands on time. But from what I can gather, I'm an exception. Our long haul colleagues rarely hand fly. They cite fatigue, SOPs, complicated airspace, etc. as reasons for not doing so. I am also fortunate that we spend time in the sim hand flying. But I feel better with more time and more unpleasant failure scenarios. But that costs time and money, neither of which will be spent willingly until we are persuaded to do so. Maybe pilots (ladies as well as men) who fly highly automated aircraft should be forced to fly piston and turbo-prop twins part time? More basic flying is one if the answers, but I'm sure other things could be improved. PM |
Cannot see that, Judd. Normally a F/O needs to be qualified as cruise Captain and I wonder if RHS was?
Add in, SENIOR F/O in LHS - de facto Captain?. It would be nice to know who was actually designated cruise Captain on the roster. |
It would be nice to know who was actually designated cruise Captain on the roster |
Hi,
Discussion about which of the two co-pilots had command was addressed in the AF447 Final Report issued by BEA. Here are verbatim quotations: At the time of the accident: In the Air France operations manual, the Captain’s replacement was a co-pilot designated as relief pilot. Acting in this capacity, he made the necessary operational decisions for the flight in accordance with the Captain’s instructions. He stayed in the right seat and from this seat carried out the PF function. He performed tasks marked “C” in the check-lists and emergency procedures. Reinforcement of the role of co-pilots - Modification of rules for relieving the Captain in March 2010: the relief co-pilot is designated by the Captain, he sits on the left side and is PNF. - Deployment underway of a new decision-making method: the co-pilot speaks first, before the final decision of the Captain (optimisation of decision-making, reinforcing the co-pilot’s responsibilities). http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp...p090601.en.pdf |
Thanks, pk - it looks as if AF had a strange concept of command! As for that last paragraph.........:eek: I hope translation has caused that.
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Surely, common sense should have dictated that before the captain left the other two up front on their own - especially since the weather radar showed storms brewing ahead- |
Don't forget his 'girlfriend' may well have been awaiting him.
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I am still puzzled over that last paragraph I quoted in the Air France report... seems contrary to CRM best practices to me??
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Maybe a single Centre Stick, useable from both pilot seats, would be a better way in future?
cf the Australian Victa Airtourer |
..........until that one fails?
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Originally Posted by pithblot
Maybe a single Centre Stick, useable from both pilot seats, would be a better way in future?
I guess people have different definitions of term progress... |
I was advocating a concept and assuming the self-evident did not need explaining. The concept is putting the primary control in a position that is visible and accessible from both seats: the self-evident is that control redundancy is provided.
(Baron von Munchausen, if you are listening, I'm not seriously suggesting we replace two high bypass turbo fan engines with a single Continental 0-200. Also, just to be clear, there is no insinuation that a lawn mower starter handle should be used anywhere in an Airbus. At least not on the flight deck.) |
the self-evident is that control redundancy is provided. |
I still don't understand what's wrong with
"my airplane" "your airplane" "I have the airplane" |
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