Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning
Reload this Page >

New book about Thomas Cook - Pulling Wings from Butterflies

Safety, CRM, QA & Emergency Response Planning A wide ranging forum for issues facing Aviation Professionals and Academics

New book about Thomas Cook - Pulling Wings from Butterflies

Old 24th Dec 2020, 16:56
  #21 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Earth (just)
Posts: 721
Really not sure why this has been dumped in this cul-de-sac. Surely it's of greater value to the flying fraternity than a pax climbing out on the wing of an aeroplane isn't it? Shouldn't we be headlining stuff like this or have we become a comic book aviation forum? Really!
Wing Commander Fowler is offline  
Old 25th Dec 2020, 11:23
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: London
Posts: 1
Well said Mike!
And guess what.... a fatigued pilot, who is working beyond their legal max hours, crashes an aircraft. Who is to blame? Of course the investigators will blame the pilots!
A320 Glider is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2020, 10:15
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Wing Commander Fowler View Post
A320 Glider

Well yes they should! Question is will they? The book implies they simply ARE the "types" to hang but NOT their own heads and certainly not in shame. Truly immoral types. Hopefully, books like this will show these people for what they are - scum! The industry is in a spiral dive and it began long before another disease appeared over the horizon this year.......
I worked for this lot from 1998 to 2004.

I left after a very bizarre command upgrade check ride that I didn't agree with.

The management at the time were clearly aggrieved by my resigning without a job to go to.

Much to my surprise I couldn't even get an interview with other airlines with the same type! It rapidly became obvious that the petty and vindictive management of My travel were wrecking my job chances.

To get a new job I had to resort to outmaneuvering the old management by telling old colleagues that I was going to interviews at a specific airline whilst actually going for interview somewhere else.

I was three months in to this other job when they worked out where I was and was called into the office for a most threatening meeting that I can only assume came from contact with the old management.

Nasty vindictive small minded people!
NOMANSNEMESIS is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2020, 21:53
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 68
Posts: 377
The Karlene Petitt litigation, specifically the Dep't of Labor ALJ decision recently which contained rather negative findings or statements concerning FAA Admin. S. Dickson, is the subject of an article posted today, Dec. 27, on the Wall Street Journal website, written by the Journal's well-known aviation reporter Andy Pasztor. (Administrative Law Judge)

As an SLF/attorney, the case - while not something about which I knew much of anything even after the questions raised in Dickson's Senate confirmation hearings - certainly does appear to connect impactfully with a few important current developing situations in aviation law and policy, and to the extent it is a different subject area, aviation safety. For one thing, the recent FAA reform legislation passed by Congress (but caught up in other national political gamesmanship in Washington) contains significant additional whistleblower protections. Yet, whether the RLA and other federal law protections extend sufficiently to airline aviators could be open to serious question, in light of the ALJ ruling.

Moreover, the concerns voiced and tenaciously advocated for by Ms. Petitt appear to relate to or concern aspects of aviation safety presenting increasingly high significance for the U.S. (and probably, international) civil aviation sector. Despite the pandemic and the global recession or depression in travel. Inasmuch as this SLF/atty hasn't located (or obviously read) the ALJ ruling yet, just one item of the safety concerns at the root of the litigated matter should be commented on further.

"Chronic pilot fatigue" was one safety concern of Ms. Petitt, according to the WSJ news article. This reminds me of a speech or lecture given a few years back by NTSB head Robert Sumwalt. An audience member in the q-&-a asked about whether an accident would need to occur in order to cause reform efforts to advance, with regard to more realistic and enforceable regulations concerning pilot duty limits and rest periods (or words of inquiry to that effect). "We've already had that accident", the Board chairman responded, referencing Colgan Air 3407. Will the ALJ ruling have a similar impact, one can only wonder?

Of course an appeal of the ALJ ruling is reported to be planned by the company. Ah yes, the refined, occasionally rarified air of the practice of law in the United States, where billable hours and boardroom egos collide with . . . whatever happens to be really important - as opposed to just reflections of materialistic frustrations - in a given case at bar.

WillowRun 6-3 is online now  
Old 27th Dec 2020, 22:39
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 68
Posts: 377
All 116 pages

For those interested.... the ALJ Decision and Order Granting Relief is located via this link (courtesy of the book website posted earlier in this thread):
PETITT_KARLENE_v_DELTA_AIR_LINES_INC_2018AIR00041__DEC_21_20 20__154529_CADEC_CD.pdf (mcusercontent.com)

Not that it matters too very much but this is indeed a hefty and dense piece of administrative law judge decision-making, reflecting what certainly appears to have been a pitched legal battle up to this point.

One wonders whether this litigation, the issues around which it has revolved or the issues it raises or implicates about the overall civil aviation sector in the U.S. (or, . . . both), will find its way into the anticipated confirmation hearings for the nominee designated by the President-elect as Secretary of Transportation. Your somewhat cynical SLF/atty poster says, were I an attorney staff advisor to any member of the Senate Committee before which the nominee would appear, you can bet your first tube of airplane glue that I would be advocating strongly to press the nominee to see whether he is conversant with either, or both, of the above-referenced relevancy aspects of this litigation.
WillowRun 6-3 is online now  
Old 29th Dec 2020, 14:10
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 9
Karlene Petitt vs Delta

Finally, the news begins to break in the UK media about a huge win for Karlene Petitt against Delta. The Judge slammed the head of the FAA Steve Dickson. Her case is virtually the same as mine in that an airline was found to have retaliated against a pilot for raising serious safety concerns. The real concern is that, as in my case, the pilots union refused to support either case. It was only when the situation was taken out of the hands of the aviation establishment and given to the grown-ups did common sense prevail. In my case BALPA refused to provide legal support for the trial and the CAA's response was 'get over it'. Things should get very interesting at BALPA towers and the CAA over the next few months
Youmightsaythat is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2020, 16:16
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: hector's house
Posts: 77
I worked for the other big UK charter operator and found that they were incapable of sticking to the rostered block times due to creating their own congestion down-route. The three sector days were simply vile with the third sector spent flopped out in the back of a taxi for 2 or 3 hours after a long duty spent dealing with slot delays and disruptive passengers. The stress for me over the summer just built up due to the long randomly rostered duties and missed ATC slots, with insufficient downtime on off days to restore a safe level of alertness.

I got out before I parked my car in a ditch on the long drive back to my home base.
hec7or is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2020, 21:55
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: SW1A 2AA
Posts: 98
I worked for AIH/MYT/TCX from early 1992 until it folded in 2019. It wasn't perfect and I got screwed over a few times. On the other hand, there were times when they were more than generous when I had done a favour. I can remember doing a week BKK layover on leave when they bought me a BKK-SYD-BKK ticket to spend the week with the wife whilst she was on an Aus trip. It was offered up, I didn't even ask for it.

It wasn't perfect. Is anything in aviation? I think many of us knew of Mike's fight against the injustices/system. But you have to ask yourself if it was all worth it. The airline has gone and so have all the people involved. Some basically good people. Some less so.
Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2020, 22:06
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 9
I don't think you quite get what it is all about do you? "when they were more than generous when I had done a favour." You mean operate illigally? fly days off? Oh, believe me, it will all be worth it
Youmightsaythat is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2020, 22:34
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: SW1A 2AA
Posts: 98
Maybe I don't get quite what it was all about. I'm only stating my experience which is obviously different to yours. I was never asked to do anything illegal. I would swear that under oath. Like many, I did a bit of horse trading with days off and overtime, but I always knew that it would stand scrutiny if questioned.
Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP is offline  
Old 30th Dec 2020, 04:17
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,645
Delta pilot whistleblower

With the Boeing saga another example of the face of business and the regulatory body (FAA). Are we interested in safety? You bet, not.

megan is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2021, 10:29
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: The Eye Of The Storm
Posts: 14
Mike, I just stumbled over your book on another website and immediately realised it's the book I'd love to have written myself if I had the time and talent. I certainly feel the motivation, and want to thank you for doing this.
I have ordered the hardback version and look forward to reading it, and to the release of the other two books.
I truly wish every commercial pilot would support your efforts by buying a copy - or two! Pass it on to their family and friends, and get the truth out about this industry and its hypocrisy. 'Safety First', my ass! After the revelations from Boeing I hope the lid has been finally lifted on that lie.
Typhoon Surfer is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2021, 23:41
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 18
An enjoyable read but a shocking wake-up call that some airline managers, union bosses and even the CAA don't really care about safety.
Han Special is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2021, 03:36
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 9
Thanks for the support guys!

Thank you for your kind comments about the book but, in the words of Bachman–Turner Overdrive 'You Aint Seen Nothing Yet'.

The reason I split the book into three is I wanted the 'non' aviation population to get a good grounding of the aviation business. I wanted them to really see what lies behind their £20 return to Malaga. I wanted to highlight the effort, the money and commitment we all exert to become pilots, to only become indentured slaves to a group of 'barrow boy' management types not fit to run a bath never mind an airline. What the next two in the series reveal is, they are not actually the real villains. It is the union BALPA and the CAA. The head of the BALPA NEC has already attempted to claim on a public forum that the details in the book was a 'nice history rewrite'. The senior BALPA figure making that comment has a bit of a problem. He made the comment before the release of the book. Whoops. The sad reality is, I expected nothing less.

Those very few who have already had access to the other two volumes (currently being edited) are appalled at the politics, collusion and coverup at the union and CAA and an independent investigation company. Indeed one does not need to look far to see the 'influence' of the 'good old boy' network. Anyone else wondering why this thread was shifted to this backwater? One poster on here claims 'well I was never asked to do anything illegal'. I would therefore suggest he stands alone in that particular 'ven diagram'. Indeed Hutchings, Scadeng and Thorington, on oath also claim the FDP was legal... I won't spoil the surprise for you.

A few have suggested the only reason for writing the book is to 'cash in'. I strongly suspect those making such comments (always anonymously of course) are exactly the same type who would sell their grannies for a day off payment.

No, as a few of you have already alluded to, and the comments in the reviews on Amazon highlight, the real reason is to finally expose exactly the state of the airline industry and name those who are behind this cancerous culture that now infects the union and regulator. With the industry in the state it is in, is there any better time to cut out the deadwood and, well you know, just follow laws already in place.

I have been inundated with messages from pilots and cabin crew all highlighting their own dealings with the current crop of Dunning Kruger managers, union and CAA officials.

The ONLY way things will change is either via a high profile crash (Tombstone Safety) or the real dirty secrets being given a wide as possible public audience. That is the reason for writing the series.

The facts are in the book (I spent £1000's on legal advice on what I could and could say) Every single item is backed up by evidence presented to two judges. Would a Superior Court Judge really write the foreword if there was any doubt as to its legitimacy?

So please spread the word, use the book as a rallying point to actually make a change. Write to the CAA, post on BALPA, hassle your MP. Otherwise, as Judge George W King writes in the foreword its just another example of 'From the safest places come the bravest words'.

Again guys, thank you for the support.

Youmightsaythat is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2021, 15:30
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 1,158
The ONLY way things will change is either via a high profile crash (Tombstone Safety) or the real dirty secrets being given a wide as possible public audience.
Those things do not make change in themselves, they prompt change only when people care enough. They are not the ONLY mechanisms to make people care enough, they just happen to be the ones you are promoting. They can be very effective but can also, at times, be counterproductive. Behaviour modification is a complex topic, or so my dog tells me.

Anyway good luck
beardy is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2021, 17:19
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Manchester
Posts: 9
Cheers Beardy!

Unfortunately, every other avenue has been closed down by BALPA and the Union(how will be explained in book two and three). We are way past the counterproductive stage now.
Youmightsaythat is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.