Use of the vest in apron areas
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Use of the vest in apron areas
I'm trying to find the regulation or recommendation that the crews from entering the airport movement area must wear the vest flourishing. Still see some of the crew of some companies not to do this, and only do so only on the exterior inspections or when the airport regulation so requires.
Do you know any document that mentions this?
Also it happens sometimes go to the stands and no crosswalks. In an accident with a crew member insurance may not pay their compensation, not to use vest, or due to vilition of crossing the apron areas without crosswalks.
Do you know any document that mentions this?
Also it happens sometimes go to the stands and no crosswalks. In an accident with a crew member insurance may not pay their compensation, not to use vest, or due to vilition of crossing the apron areas without crosswalks.
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HiViz vests save you from spontaneous combustion, earthquakes, attacks from crocodiles and being bitten by snakes, etc. - They are 100% effective! I've also not been run over by my own aircraft. Buy they are sod all of use in stopping you from being run over by vehicles on the apron. I've lost count of the times I've nearly been taken out. But I always wear one and insist my crew do the same. And if I do get run over, I'll sue the a**e of the airport where it happened. If the 
wits want me to wear one, I'll do so. But I'm under no illusion that they do nothing for safety: the only thing they do is tick a box for the mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places.
The same sort of thinking happens with all "safety" things at airports. Signs that say things like "This airbridge may only be operated by trained personnel in accordance with procedures", warning sirens and lights that go on for tens minutes, bright flashing beacons on every bit of equipment - buggering up your night vision, not reporting braking action etc. All of this ticks boxes but does nothing to enhance safety for anyone.
wits want me to wear one, I'll do so. But I'm under no illusion that they do nothing for safety: the only thing they do is tick a box for the mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places.The same sort of thinking happens with all "safety" things at airports. Signs that say things like "This airbridge may only be operated by trained personnel in accordance with procedures", warning sirens and lights that go on for tens minutes, bright flashing beacons on every bit of equipment - buggering up your night vision, not reporting braking action etc. All of this ticks boxes but does nothing to enhance safety for anyone.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 28th Oct 2016 at 09:08. Reason: I was being unfair to all airport managers.
There are countless safety devices which are not guaranteed to prevent accidents but are major contributors to safety.
Training pilots to fly aircraft will not prevent accidents, as history has shown, but training will make a significant contribution towards accident prevention. All the procedures, yellow lines, red lights and signposts won’t stop a runway incursion but they will assist greatly. Red traffic lights do not prevent vehicles crossing road junctions, but they are a useful aid to that end. Warnings on many appliances together with safety devices etc are there to aid the prevention of accidents but they will not automatically do so.
Similarly hi-visibility clothing will not prevent you from being knocked down by a vehicle but worn correctly and in a clean condition will enable vehicle and aircraft operators to see you which will in turn help to prevent a collision. However, as with all safety procedures, equipment and training there are always holes in the Swiss cheese waiting to line up.
Man has moved on significantly since the Piltdown era and that progress has been enhanced greatly by attention to matters affecting safety. History tells of the horrendous industrial accidents in bygone days, the death rates in many walks of life was scandalous. In aviation the number of accidents was massive world wide. Today we live in a much safer industrial world largely thanks to the ‘half-wits’ who have striven to make this happen by providing training, procedures, and equipment and of course it has the fancy name of Safety Management.
I do find the reference to the ‘mentally retarded’ a deeply offensive description. Incidentally the wearing of a hi-visibilty jacket will assist any passing crocodile to see you, with the possibility of your demise.
Training pilots to fly aircraft will not prevent accidents, as history has shown, but training will make a significant contribution towards accident prevention. All the procedures, yellow lines, red lights and signposts won’t stop a runway incursion but they will assist greatly. Red traffic lights do not prevent vehicles crossing road junctions, but they are a useful aid to that end. Warnings on many appliances together with safety devices etc are there to aid the prevention of accidents but they will not automatically do so.
Similarly hi-visibility clothing will not prevent you from being knocked down by a vehicle but worn correctly and in a clean condition will enable vehicle and aircraft operators to see you which will in turn help to prevent a collision. However, as with all safety procedures, equipment and training there are always holes in the Swiss cheese waiting to line up.
Man has moved on significantly since the Piltdown era and that progress has been enhanced greatly by attention to matters affecting safety. History tells of the horrendous industrial accidents in bygone days, the death rates in many walks of life was scandalous. In aviation the number of accidents was massive world wide. Today we live in a much safer industrial world largely thanks to the ‘half-wits’ who have striven to make this happen by providing training, procedures, and equipment and of course it has the fancy name of Safety Management.
I do find the reference to the ‘mentally retarded’ a deeply offensive description. Incidentally the wearing of a hi-visibilty jacket will assist any passing crocodile to see you, with the possibility of your demise.
Last edited by Helen49; 28th Oct 2016 at 13:38. Reason: spelling
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Incidentally the wearing of a hi-visibilty jacket will assist any passing crocodile to see you, with the possibility of your demise.
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H49,
Ever worked as a rampy or bag-chucker?
No? .. I thought not.
If you had, you would have understood what Piltdown Man was talking about when he mentioned mental retards
with the 'quick-job's a good-job mentality.
This attitude has been fostered by management because those workers can be bought and sold cheaply - and besides,
they tend not to ask awkward questions.
Ever worked as a rampy or bag-chucker?
No? .. I thought not.
If you had, you would have understood what Piltdown Man was talking about when he mentioned mental retards
with the 'quick-job's a good-job mentality.
This attitude has been fostered by management because those workers can be bought and sold cheaply - and besides,
they tend not to ask awkward questions.
I sit somewhere between Helen and Piltdown here.
I work at an airport that seldom opens at night, presently has a handful of movements an hour, but we do do fuelling on the airfield.
And if I want to get in serious trouble, I can easily do so by failing to wear my inflammable hi-viz vest in broad daylight, to walk across the quiet-as-the-grave apron, as we refuel the aircraft.
Clearly, at night in the rain, on a busy apron, nobody but an idiot would leave their hi-viz in the office. But the "thou shalt always" attitude applied to them in some places is indeed a classic symptom of mindless tick-box rulemaking. The word "insurance" usually comes up very quickly when you challenge such absurdities, as if the insurance company had ever actually been consulted or expressed an opinion on the topic, which invariably they have not.
So, comparing the way this is often imposed, against Piltdown's description of "tick a box for the mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places." Yeah, pretty much !
I work at an airport that seldom opens at night, presently has a handful of movements an hour, but we do do fuelling on the airfield.
And if I want to get in serious trouble, I can easily do so by failing to wear my inflammable hi-viz vest in broad daylight, to walk across the quiet-as-the-grave apron, as we refuel the aircraft.
Clearly, at night in the rain, on a busy apron, nobody but an idiot would leave their hi-viz in the office. But the "thou shalt always" attitude applied to them in some places is indeed a classic symptom of mindless tick-box rulemaking. The word "insurance" usually comes up very quickly when you challenge such absurdities, as if the insurance company had ever actually been consulted or expressed an opinion on the topic, which invariably they have not.
So, comparing the way this is often imposed, against Piltdown's description of "tick a box for the mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places." Yeah, pretty much !
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its saturday and bored... I was reading your posts.. I was wondering HI VIZ vest etc.. must be worn for safety when walking and daydreaming on the airport apron, to avoid being roadkill..
So passenger wandering to there LOcost planes across apron because no aerobridge, must in theory wear one.
So passenger wandering to there LOcost planes across apron because no aerobridge, must in theory wear one.
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A few years ago I dared to walk across the "live" taxiway at Farnborough. Tower spotted me and had me intercepted by "the land rover".
Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing was moving or running on the whole airport. No APU, no engine, not even a car with the exception of the land rover. So the taxi way was as dead as asphalt usually is...
Same place, at night, we parked for just a pax drop right under a light mast, I got out of the airplane, walk around the wing and open the hatch to the baggage hold, the land rover arrives (which I saw lurking like a beast of prey maybe 200 mtrs away)and starts to bark at me about the whereabouts of my vest.
Its these incidents that transform otherwise normal people into "mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places" for me.
Nothing and I mean absolutely nothing was moving or running on the whole airport. No APU, no engine, not even a car with the exception of the land rover. So the taxi way was as dead as asphalt usually is...
Same place, at night, we parked for just a pax drop right under a light mast, I got out of the airplane, walk around the wing and open the hatch to the baggage hold, the land rover arrives (which I saw lurking like a beast of prey maybe 200 mtrs away)and starts to bark at me about the whereabouts of my vest.
Its these incidents that transform otherwise normal people into "mentally retarded half-wits who think they improve safety at these places" for me.
The hi viz vest instantly camouflages the wearer. I know this because as soon as you step on to the apron without one vehicles approach from all directions. The occupants uttering the immortal words "I spotted you from stand xyz (500m away) "
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H49 - You don't surprise me with your response and you can certainly think of me as being the enemy. Safety is the absence of events that hurt people and damage equipment. None of us should be hurt at work and no person should be hurt by day to day activities. Yet they still are. So despite having literally thousands of safety rules and initiatives, we still can't stop accidents. Why is that? It's basically because the safety experts, the people who like rules and procedures are now too remote from the activities they are trying to regulate. A beautiful example of this is shown above. The passengers appear to be safe enough without HiViz yet the loaders are not.
To be safer in the future we will have to mentally take a few steps back. We have to ask ourselves like how come so many people survived working in dangerous environments managed to survive? Was it luck or was it in the way they went about doing things? We also have to ask difficult questions like, does this "safety rule" actually work? Has this "safety notice" actually been read? What would happen if we unregulated access to area x? And so on.
Let me repeat my message in fewer words - There are too many "safety" procedures that fail to improve safety.
Genghis has it - on a good day with an empty apron, what does a HiViz jacket do to improve your safety? But his comment "...at night in the rain, on a busy apron, nobody but an idiot would leave their hi-viz in the office" shows part of our solution, people thinking. So Helen49, you stick to your rules and procedures. Abd you can count on me sticking to them as well, no matter how absurd. But if ever I get hurt on an apron controlled by someone like you, expect to see me in court with my greedy, filthy compo lawyer. If I appear to be uncivilised in this it is because I believe in having a safer world.
As a passing thought to end, is 100% safety realistically achieveable? Personally I think ALARP is the way to move forwards. But we do that in an open and transparent manner. Get everybody into the process, especially those at the sharp end.
To be safer in the future we will have to mentally take a few steps back. We have to ask ourselves like how come so many people survived working in dangerous environments managed to survive? Was it luck or was it in the way they went about doing things? We also have to ask difficult questions like, does this "safety rule" actually work? Has this "safety notice" actually been read? What would happen if we unregulated access to area x? And so on.
Let me repeat my message in fewer words - There are too many "safety" procedures that fail to improve safety.
Genghis has it - on a good day with an empty apron, what does a HiViz jacket do to improve your safety? But his comment "...at night in the rain, on a busy apron, nobody but an idiot would leave their hi-viz in the office" shows part of our solution, people thinking. So Helen49, you stick to your rules and procedures. Abd you can count on me sticking to them as well, no matter how absurd. But if ever I get hurt on an apron controlled by someone like you, expect to see me in court with my greedy, filthy compo lawyer. If I appear to be uncivilised in this it is because I believe in having a safer world.
As a passing thought to end, is 100% safety realistically achieveable? Personally I think ALARP is the way to move forwards. But we do that in an open and transparent manner. Get everybody into the process, especially those at the sharp end.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 31st Oct 2016 at 18:56. Reason: Spelling, again!
Piltdown Man
Just a few points……I don’t think you read my post and if you did you misunderstood…… and I have no enemies, life is too short!
I agree wholeheartedly that safety requires thinking people, however some can’t think and some don’t think. It may have been Churchill who said ‘that rules were for the blind obedience of idiots and the guidance of wise men’, a sentiment with which I would like to agree but the problem faced by safety practitioners is knowing who the wise men are and who are the idiots! Great offence would be caused [and all kinds of ‘human rights’ infringed!] if the rules were only addressed to the idiots!
It’s a dilemma for safety managers who of course always have an eye [nowadays] on the lawyers and those who might sue them…..another distasteful procedure IMHO.
Don’t worry, you won’t come across me, I don’t work at an airport!
Just a few points……I don’t think you read my post and if you did you misunderstood…… and I have no enemies, life is too short!
I agree wholeheartedly that safety requires thinking people, however some can’t think and some don’t think. It may have been Churchill who said ‘that rules were for the blind obedience of idiots and the guidance of wise men’, a sentiment with which I would like to agree but the problem faced by safety practitioners is knowing who the wise men are and who are the idiots! Great offence would be caused [and all kinds of ‘human rights’ infringed!] if the rules were only addressed to the idiots!
It’s a dilemma for safety managers who of course always have an eye [nowadays] on the lawyers and those who might sue them…..another distasteful procedure IMHO.
Don’t worry, you won’t come across me, I don’t work at an airport!
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This post may contain nuts. Don't drink bleach etc...
Helen - I read every word and I believe I fully understood what you wrote. But your initial post contains confusing anomalies. The major reason for traffic lights for example are to control traffic and improve traffic flow rates. Warnings and safety instructions on electrical devices are the first things to be ignored when a new "toy" is opened. I haven't read one, nor has anyone I know. They are a waste of paper. And while I'm here, who actually listens to the safety brief in the cabin before flight? But I digress.
One of the problems is Britain. In the UK's there is basic desire to pointlessly meddle in things - in the name of safety. Just a little example. In Europe, there are electrical plugs in most bathrooms, to power various things. But this is not possible in "safe" Britain. Yet I don't hear of people being electrocuted even in their tens, let alone thousands in continental Europe.
I'll agree that standard signage, lightning and taxiway marking has helped reduce runway incursions. And there are plenty of other things that have improved our safety over the years. Sewerage, machinery guards, water standards, food retail containers have all added to our safety. As have many other things over the years. But who gave us these improvements? It certainly wasn't safety managers as we know them today. Furthermore, the good name of safety has been hijacked by the ignorant, degree equipped box tickers. Their arrogance and self belief no doubt coming from a 2:2 in Underwater Basket Weaving.
Lastly, I don't wish your demise, just an acceptance that safety does not equal safety. HiViz jackets on an empty apron in the sunshine do nothing for you but on a horrible, windy, rainy night at 2:00am in the morning you might have to consider whether you should be really be there at all.
One of the problems is Britain. In the UK's there is basic desire to pointlessly meddle in things - in the name of safety. Just a little example. In Europe, there are electrical plugs in most bathrooms, to power various things. But this is not possible in "safe" Britain. Yet I don't hear of people being electrocuted even in their tens, let alone thousands in continental Europe.
I'll agree that standard signage, lightning and taxiway marking has helped reduce runway incursions. And there are plenty of other things that have improved our safety over the years. Sewerage, machinery guards, water standards, food retail containers have all added to our safety. As have many other things over the years. But who gave us these improvements? It certainly wasn't safety managers as we know them today. Furthermore, the good name of safety has been hijacked by the ignorant, degree equipped box tickers. Their arrogance and self belief no doubt coming from a 2:2 in Underwater Basket Weaving.
Lastly, I don't wish your demise, just an acceptance that safety does not equal safety. HiViz jackets on an empty apron in the sunshine do nothing for you but on a horrible, windy, rainy night at 2:00am in the morning you might have to consider whether you should be really be there at all.
I'd be interested to know .... were ramp persons regularly diced by DC3s / Constellations in the old non-yellow-jacket era?
Is there evidence that yellow jackets have helped at all?
What about the theory that it's better to make things a bit more difficult to see so everyone is a bit more careful. EG taking out road markings in pedestrian areas in town centers, removing cat's eyes on roads etc
Is there evidence that yellow jackets have helped at all?
What about the theory that it's better to make things a bit more difficult to see so everyone is a bit more careful. EG taking out road markings in pedestrian areas in town centers, removing cat's eyes on roads etc
I too read this thread because I thought there might be some amusing comments.
However coming to the bit about bathrooms today we have a sad but graphic example of how ignorance is the killer not location of plugs or hi vixz clothing.
A thirty something guy in Essex killed himself because he was recharging his I phone while he was using it in the bath. he had the charger connected to an extension lead and balanced the actual charger unit on his chest while in the bath using the phone.
Even then there was a comment from the coroner about Mobile Phone manufacturers needing to put warning labels on devices for that kind of situation. Do people under 40 learn anything at school about day to day thinsg that kill you?
in addition i have observed of late my own 'syndrome' which I like to call Hi Viz blindness which is a situation where there are so many yellow jackets that your brain discounts them as individual objects or people and in fact only notices those not using them
However coming to the bit about bathrooms today we have a sad but graphic example of how ignorance is the killer not location of plugs or hi vixz clothing.
A thirty something guy in Essex killed himself because he was recharging his I phone while he was using it in the bath. he had the charger connected to an extension lead and balanced the actual charger unit on his chest while in the bath using the phone.
Even then there was a comment from the coroner about Mobile Phone manufacturers needing to put warning labels on devices for that kind of situation. Do people under 40 learn anything at school about day to day thinsg that kill you?
in addition i have observed of late my own 'syndrome' which I like to call Hi Viz blindness which is a situation where there are so many yellow jackets that your brain discounts them as individual objects or people and in fact only notices those not using them
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Spot on pax and the blindness you talk about exists in our high streets. The Hi-viz jacket is the garment of choice for ne'er do wells (e.g. muggers, armed robbers etc.). You become invisible when wearing one because so many people have to wear them as part of their work they have lost their impact, the attention seeking that they were designed to achieve has been lost. I'll also wager there are absolutely no numbers to prove their worth. Despite that I'll still wear mine for the compensation should I ever get run over or have something bumping into me.
Returning the guy in the bath, the coroner concerned in this case needs to be publicly drowned in a bucket . The hazard was the electricity. The hazard was taken into the bathroom by the extension lead. If we use this coroner's logic every TV, lawnmower, arc welding rig, battery charger etc. should also be so labelled. A pathetic second best would be a label (who reads them?) on every extension lead. But the best solution would be to ensure every house has a proper RCD protection. However, if we taught people to think...
PM
Returning the guy in the bath, the coroner concerned in this case needs to be publicly drowned in a bucket . The hazard was the electricity. The hazard was taken into the bathroom by the extension lead. If we use this coroner's logic every TV, lawnmower, arc welding rig, battery charger etc. should also be so labelled. A pathetic second best would be a label (who reads them?) on every extension lead. But the best solution would be to ensure every house has a proper RCD protection. However, if we taught people to think...
PM
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Regarding safety labels:
I was once bemused to find a warning label on a hairdryer in a hotel in the USA.
It read "Do not use in the shower".
Someone must have previously tried it!
As the saying goes, "Just when you think something is idiot proof, along comes a better class of idiot"
I was once bemused to find a warning label on a hairdryer in a hotel in the USA.
It read "Do not use in the shower".
Someone must have previously tried it!
As the saying goes, "Just when you think something is idiot proof, along comes a better class of idiot"
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Obviously, wearing of a high vis vest, does nothing to help with being seen. The OHS Fairies cant see you if you are wearing one, but can see you from a kilometre away at midnight during a snow storm.
