Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts
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Framer
My understanding is that if the scheduled block time is realistic for a season and this can be proved by statistical info on block times then if on the day the FDP becomes illegal (say for example aircraft has a limitation or there are headwinds) the the flight can be made.
Prior to EASA the UK CAA had a group of FTL Industry expects which met on a regular basis to give them advice on such matters. It was advice but in most cases it was taken on-board. The body included CAA, BALPA, Airline Reps and some retired guys who probably flew with RAT5 or Douglas Bader.
Now under EASA I'm not really sure what happens in cases of "interpretation" if it is the responsibility of the National Authority or EASA.
My own opinion is as above but in the case of a single one off FDP which caused so much angst - I'm with the Commander.
My understanding is that if the scheduled block time is realistic for a season and this can be proved by statistical info on block times then if on the day the FDP becomes illegal (say for example aircraft has a limitation or there are headwinds) the the flight can be made.
Prior to EASA the UK CAA had a group of FTL Industry expects which met on a regular basis to give them advice on such matters. It was advice but in most cases it was taken on-board. The body included CAA, BALPA, Airline Reps and some retired guys who probably flew with RAT5 or Douglas Bader.
Now under EASA I'm not really sure what happens in cases of "interpretation" if it is the responsibility of the National Authority or EASA.
My own opinion is as above but in the case of a single one off FDP which caused so much angst - I'm with the Commander.
Yip, I hear you, just having a bit of fun imagining a letter I might write 
As far as this bit goes
Isn't that convenient. The only people really being held accountable for any position or action now days are the Captains, every other desk is too slippery for anything to stick.
As far as this bit goes
Now under EASA I'm not really sure what happens in cases of "interpretation" if it is the responsibility of the National Authority or EASA
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According to News | So You Want To Be A Pilot it looks like he has already replied to the CAA.
Dear Ms. Slater,
Thank you for your response.
To remove any doubt or misunderstanding, this is very much not an ‘academic interest’ question it is in fact, very much, a ‘flight safety question’ and I require a definitive answer to my question in order to be able to comply with my legal responsibility as an ATPL holder and Commander.
To put it bluntly, I require the ‘authority’ to answer the question that relates to flight safety.
If you are still in any doubt as to the matter being of a flight safety issue to protect the travelling public, the “Finding of Fact’ from an Independent Tribunal stated ‘The limits on flight time and not flying when fatigued are clearly matters related to safety which, if breached, are potentially harmful to the health and safety of passengers and crew.’
Therefore in order to comply with the law, I need to know what the law is. i.e. I need to know if a duty I am provided with is compliant with the law, the only way I will know that is if the CAA answer my question.
Please inform if you, on behalf of the CAA intend to answer the question. If I have no reply in seven days I will assume the CAA have declined to answer a Flight Safety question and will deal with that failure accordingly.
Dear Ms. Slater,
Thank you for your response.
To remove any doubt or misunderstanding, this is very much not an ‘academic interest’ question it is in fact, very much, a ‘flight safety question’ and I require a definitive answer to my question in order to be able to comply with my legal responsibility as an ATPL holder and Commander.
To put it bluntly, I require the ‘authority’ to answer the question that relates to flight safety.
If you are still in any doubt as to the matter being of a flight safety issue to protect the travelling public, the “Finding of Fact’ from an Independent Tribunal stated ‘The limits on flight time and not flying when fatigued are clearly matters related to safety which, if breached, are potentially harmful to the health and safety of passengers and crew.’
Therefore in order to comply with the law, I need to know what the law is. i.e. I need to know if a duty I am provided with is compliant with the law, the only way I will know that is if the CAA answer my question.
Please inform if you, on behalf of the CAA intend to answer the question. If I have no reply in seven days I will assume the CAA have declined to answer a Flight Safety question and will deal with that failure accordingly.
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It's interesting how a BBC journalist has been hanging around in the ME section trying to dig up dirt on fatigue in the ME airlines, but she seems curiously absent from this thread. It's disappointing that the UK media are so disinterested in a major national public interest story and are content to allow the EU authority off the hook, or even act complicitly by offering distractions and accusations at a place with tighter regulation.
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BBC Newsnight journo
It is indeed disappointing that the media are not investigating matters closer to home, even though I note that someone has pointed her directly to this thread
I do not wish to appear ignorant, but from experience I would imagine the CAA are either sitting on their hands, pretending it is not happening; or sitting on their hands, in full dialogue WITH THE AIRLINE, and possibly even the managers so involved, trying to mitigate the damage, or sweep it all under the carpet.
The day the CAA take a pilots side against a UK airline will be a cold day in hell.
It's never happened and it will not happen in our lifetimes.
If they start believing what pilots are telling them - and have been telling them for decades - they would have to act. They have no wish to act, and so have a vested interest in believing the defence put up by the airline.
Don't worry though - your unions will sort this out for you.
The day the CAA take a pilots side against a UK airline will be a cold day in hell.
It's never happened and it will not happen in our lifetimes.
If they start believing what pilots are telling them - and have been telling them for decades - they would have to act. They have no wish to act, and so have a vested interest in believing the defence put up by the airline.
Don't worry though - your unions will sort this out for you.
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Hermes G-ALDJ crashed at about midnight at Blackbushe on 5th Nov 1956. Questions were asked in Parliament within a day or two. The Report was published on 7th Mar.1957
No CVR or other Recording was done in those days but the Captain's Voyage report from Captain Terry Connor was found and used.
He and his crew had been without proper rest for 30 hours ( with 10 hours inadequate rest at Tripoli) during an evacuation from Suez.
FTL were improved with crew rest bunks fitted, etc.thereafter.
No CVR or other Recording was done in those days but the Captain's Voyage report from Captain Terry Connor was found and used.
He and his crew had been without proper rest for 30 hours ( with 10 hours inadequate rest at Tripoli) during an evacuation from Suez.
FTL were improved with crew rest bunks fitted, etc.thereafter.
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This conversation amazes me.
First, I can't understand how scheduling can be this bad.
I accept that it is, and my heart goes out to all of you. Not a matter of disbelief in what you're posting, disbelief in WHY you have to post it.
Make more YouTube channels, make more Facebook pages, and get the word out one way or another.
PAX are not as stupid or uncaring as you might think.
Think of us as shoppers. And think about how a lot of people shop -- organic produce, meat, eggs, et cetera.
Almost all of us would pony up a tiny bit more for a ticket based on the assurance that the crew was well rested and at least satisfied with their employment.
It's the reason that I try to fly Southwest whenever I can. Everyone I deal with seems to be somewhere between satisfied and enthusiastic about their career.
What I'm saying is don't disregard us passengers. A lot of us make decisions which are not based on price.
First, I can't understand how scheduling can be this bad.
I accept that it is, and my heart goes out to all of you. Not a matter of disbelief in what you're posting, disbelief in WHY you have to post it.
Make more YouTube channels, make more Facebook pages, and get the word out one way or another.
PAX are not as stupid or uncaring as you might think.
Think of us as shoppers. And think about how a lot of people shop -- organic produce, meat, eggs, et cetera.
Almost all of us would pony up a tiny bit more for a ticket based on the assurance that the crew was well rested and at least satisfied with their employment.
It's the reason that I try to fly Southwest whenever I can. Everyone I deal with seems to be somewhere between satisfied and enthusiastic about their career.
What I'm saying is don't disregard us passengers. A lot of us make decisions which are not based on price.
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Rotton Ray this guy has... Who Ultimately Decides If A Pilot Is Fit To Fly? | So You Want To Be A Pilot
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If the same people involved in this are still employed by the company, I guess those higher up must feel they did nothing wrong, be interesting to see if any progress happens but from this, but by the looks of it, they seem to have made this yesterday's news, very sad for our industry.
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Club
So someone comes up with a (bent) schedule and you want them sacked? I suspect the CAA would take a holistic view on in. What are the discretion trends at TC. Do they have regular trips that require discretion . How many times has the Captain used discretion etc etc. Have they taken action against trips tbat have gone over 33% etc.
I've done a lot worse
So someone comes up with a (bent) schedule and you want them sacked? I suspect the CAA would take a holistic view on in. What are the discretion trends at TC. Do they have regular trips that require discretion . How many times has the Captain used discretion etc etc. Have they taken action against trips tbat have gone over 33% etc.
I've done a lot worse
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In 1978 shortly after getting my command I was asked to the office. Reason was that I had done several discretion reports for 10 mins or so on the last sector from Rotterdam, which usually ran late. I was told that I was succumbing to pressure from ops & not to extend any duty periods for at least 3 months.
How times have changed. If we pilots had not been so weak & continued upholding the FTLs then the industry would not be in the state it is in. Pilots have only themselves to blame. Nice to hear of someone standing up for what is right.
How times have changed. If we pilots had not been so weak & continued upholding the FTLs then the industry would not be in the state it is in. Pilots have only themselves to blame. Nice to hear of someone standing up for what is right.
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Ice Pack, spot on, pilots have brought this on themselves, totally.
Twiglet, you say the CAA take a 'holistic view' and take action against trips that have gone 33% over. I guess unlike some you have not read the Judgement in total, or fully absorbed it's significance at least. Does 'holistic view' equate to ....."I fancy getting my ar£$ through the door at that place at some point for a juicy, well paid desk job' so I will be 'holistic' with them while im supposed to be policing them, in which case, yes you will probably be right. Then this guy pours sand in the vaseline !!
Lets hope that our loved ones are not injured by a guy who the police had taken a 'holistic' view of him being 4 times over the drink drive limit when they pulled him over 10 mins before.
Twiglet, you say the CAA take a 'holistic view' and take action against trips that have gone 33% over. I guess unlike some you have not read the Judgement in total, or fully absorbed it's significance at least. Does 'holistic view' equate to ....."I fancy getting my ar£$ through the door at that place at some point for a juicy, well paid desk job' so I will be 'holistic' with them while im supposed to be policing them, in which case, yes you will probably be right. Then this guy pours sand in the vaseline !!
Lets hope that our loved ones are not injured by a guy who the police had taken a 'holistic' view of him being 4 times over the drink drive limit when they pulled him over 10 mins before.