Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft
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This is undoubtedly good news in comparison to other possible outcomes. However, this pilot's career will probably have been irreparably damaged as will have been the image of FlyBe in some passengers' eyes.
I hope that the facts behind this sad episode, which is just one of several that have been reported in the past, are made available, regardless of whether they paint any individual or organisation in a good or bad light. Hopefully those who take the trouble to read below the headlines will then recognise the weaknesses in the present system.
I hope that the facts behind this sad episode, which is just one of several that have been reported in the past, are made available, regardless of whether they paint any individual or organisation in a good or bad light. Hopefully those who take the trouble to read below the headlines will then recognise the weaknesses in the present system.
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What is the airlines' responsibility here?
Hi! First post!
Reading through this thread, the one question I can't seem to find an answer for is what do airlines themselves do to prevent the crews from flying over the limit/under the influence?
Are there checks in place?
And if not, what is the airlines' liability/responsibility here? Seems that given they are responsible for their passengers' safety, that NOT having any checks to ensure the pilots are safe to fly is a contradiction?
Reading through this thread, the one question I can't seem to find an answer for is what do airlines themselves do to prevent the crews from flying over the limit/under the influence?
Are there checks in place?
And if not, what is the airlines' liability/responsibility here? Seems that given they are responsible for their passengers' safety, that NOT having any checks to ensure the pilots are safe to fly is a contradiction?
what do airlines themselves do to prevent the crews from flying over the limit/under the influence?
All US airlines are required by regulation to administer a DOT approved drug and alcohol misuse prevention program. This includes initial and recurrent training related to alcohol and drug abuse effects upon work performance. In other national jurisdictions like the UK, they have their own laws in effect that are similar but differ in some respects.
For US airlines, pre-employment, random and "for cause" (post accident and reasonable suspicion) drug and alcohol testing is mandatory for all employees working in "safety sensitive" positions. By law, the rate of random testing is determined by the percentage of positive test results throughout the national testing pool. So each "covered" worker is subject to pre-employment and random testing and may also be tested if reasonable suspicion is found to exist. Refusal to submit to testing is disqualifying and subjects the individual to sanctions. Any flight crewmember involved in an accident WILL be tested. (whether they survive the accident or not)
Most positive tests in the aviation industry are found in the required pre-employment tests. Flightcrew have an extremely low rate of positive tests, however they do find one occasionally.
Aside from the testing program, many companies including airlines operate an Employee Assistance Program which caters to employees who choose to voluntarily self disclose and receive treatment for substance or alcohol abuse before they are caught. (or worse)
In at least some companies, part of a flightcrew member's training is the recognition of cognitive impairment for whatever reason in oneself and fellow crew. Factors such as fatigue, sickness or emotional distraction are just as potentially dangerous as drug or alcohol impairment. Most professional pilots I've worked with will refuse to fly with anyone who they have reason to believe is significantly impaired by any cause, and especially if their impairment is believed to be caused by drugs or alcohol. There are no established and accepted objective tests for fatigue or other causes not related to intoxicant substances. Maybe someday there will be a reliable and objective pre-flight cognitive function test and maybe not. I hope that answers the question satisfactorily.
I'm happy that drug and/or alcohol use has become a rarely encountered problem in the flight operations business. But I'm equally unhappy with the fact that the aforementioned other causes of cognitive function impairment are not addressed by industry management or safety regulators with the same vigor as drug and alcohol impairment. Maybe THEY are the ones who should be presumed guilty of impairment until they provide proof of their sobriety!
So no formal charges against the pilot who is the subject of this thread eh? To me that brings into question the basis for his removal and arrest in the first place. Procedural legal error or technical problem with the testing equipment? Something else? As for the airline's internal investigation, I wouldn't expect to hear anything about that unless the airline somehow finds something they believe is in their own best interest to share with the public. There is no legal requirement that they do so after all.
Last edited by westhawk; 6th Dec 2014 at 04:31. Reason: correcting the auto correct incorrect spelinge!
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The rest of the operating crew on the day is the check/fail safe.
If you were operating single crew, different matter, some might get away with it. But we're talking airline ops here with 4 to 24 crew working in close proximity for give or take 10 hours.
If you were operating single crew, different matter, some might get away with it. But we're talking airline ops here with 4 to 24 crew working in close proximity for give or take 10 hours.
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This is a thoroughly unsatisfactory outcome so far.
Normally it is the Crown Prosecution Service make this decision based upon the strength of the evidence to achieve a guilty outcome.
Does that suggest the police service had not carried out procedures correctly?
Or was it simply that the subsequent blood test did not exceed the appropriate limits.
I just think the public need to know.
I am aware that FlyBe are still considering the evidence; how long do they need?
Normally it is the Crown Prosecution Service make this decision based upon the strength of the evidence to achieve a guilty outcome.
Does that suggest the police service had not carried out procedures correctly?
Or was it simply that the subsequent blood test did not exceed the appropriate limits.
I just think the public need to know.
I am aware that FlyBe are still considering the evidence; how long do they need?
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Yes, an extremely unsatisfactory situation for the pilot especially! Charged and arrested for being drunk i/c of an airplane, and now it appears that the prosecutors are unwilling to proceed. To me this equals NOT GUILTY, although FL will hopefully enlighten us all with the SP.
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My guess is a similar problem to that which used to exist with drunk driving in Australia. To be charged you had to be driving, police had to watch someone get in the vehicle and actually move it before they could act. The laws were changed to the person in charge of the vehicle and that meant even if you were outside the vehicle you could be charged with being over the limit.
A similar thing may have occurred here as the vehicle had not yet moved.
A similar thing may have occurred here as the vehicle had not yet moved.
A similar thing may have occurred here as the vehicle had not yet moved.
deefer
an extremely unsatisfactory situation for the pilot especially
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No pilot could be THAT drunk
The aircraft made an almost full barrel-roll with the nose down pitch increasing to 65°. It was impossible to recover from such a position without enough altitude even at a high speed (about 250 knots at the time of the impact) and having a vertical acceleration of 4.3g.
The aircraft collided with the trees and then with the ground at 23:09:25. At that time the aircraft was banking to the left intensively with a rate of 35-40 °/sec. The last recorded right bank 2-3 seconds before the crash (after the barrel-roll) was about 30°56.
The aircraft collided with the trees and then with the ground at 23:09:25. At that time the aircraft was banking to the left intensively with a rate of 35-40 °/sec. The last recorded right bank 2-3 seconds before the crash (after the barrel-roll) was about 30°56.
I am a firm believer that standards are dropping (and I don't blame the pilots themselves, just the system that allows some of them to occupy the front two seats) but, rather than agonise over 0.02% BAC (which to my knowledge never killed anyone) why don't we address the real issues and stop fart-assing around?
Edited to add:
The systemic cause of the accident was insufficient management by the airline of flight and maintenance operations of the Boeing 737 type of aircraft. These deficiencies in the aircraft maintenance also revealed through safety inspections conducted by the Russian Transport Oversight Authority and the Russian CAA after the accident.
Deficiencies in the aircraft maintenance led to a situation when flights were performed for a long time with a throttle stagger59 that exceeded the limitations in the AMM and when the maintenance staff did not follow the AMM recommended troubleshooting procedures. The need to manage the throttle stagger during the approach increased crew workload.
The forensic medical examination performed in the State Healthcare Center of Special Status “Perm Regional Forensic Expertise Bureau” confirmed the presence of ethyl alcohol in the Captain’s body before his death. The captain’s recent work schedule during the time period before the accident was conducive to fatigue and did not comply with national regulations.
Deficiencies in the aircraft maintenance led to a situation when flights were performed for a long time with a throttle stagger59 that exceeded the limitations in the AMM and when the maintenance staff did not follow the AMM recommended troubleshooting procedures. The need to manage the throttle stagger during the approach increased crew workload.
The forensic medical examination performed in the State Healthcare Center of Special Status “Perm Regional Forensic Expertise Bureau” confirmed the presence of ethyl alcohol in the Captain’s body before his death. The captain’s recent work schedule during the time period before the accident was conducive to fatigue and did not comply with national regulations.
Last edited by Pininstauld; 11th Dec 2014 at 17:17. Reason: Addition
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Drunk ! I think not
I have no doubt that if the police had given enough evidence to the CPS a prosecution would have followed, if there is not enough evidence ( all you need is a positive Breath test) then it is clear that the pilot in question is not guilty of the offence.
Now I think it is time to reflect on how someone gets pulled off an aircraft for as the BBC put it being drunk and yet the police can't gather enough evidence for the CPS to charge him.
Another crew member is reported to have raised the alarm in this case and of course the whole politicly correct movement swings into action removing the Captain in question from the flight but is unable to gather enough evidence of any wrongdoing. The exact circumstances around this case will probably never come to light but I can't help speculating that with better CRM the case would never have got this far.
Manrow I think the company have no option but to re-enstate the pilot without delay, after all he has been breath tested and insufficient evidence has been found to support prosecution proving he was not over the limit, you and I who have never been tested however don't have the luxury of being tested and proven not to be drunk !
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty .......... Except on the BBC, in the press and of course on Pprune !
Now I think it is time to reflect on how someone gets pulled off an aircraft for as the BBC put it being drunk and yet the police can't gather enough evidence for the CPS to charge him.
Another crew member is reported to have raised the alarm in this case and of course the whole politicly correct movement swings into action removing the Captain in question from the flight but is unable to gather enough evidence of any wrongdoing. The exact circumstances around this case will probably never come to light but I can't help speculating that with better CRM the case would never have got this far.
Manrow I think the company have no option but to re-enstate the pilot without delay, after all he has been breath tested and insufficient evidence has been found to support prosecution proving he was not over the limit, you and I who have never been tested however don't have the luxury of being tested and proven not to be drunk !
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty .......... Except on the BBC, in the press and of course on Pprune !
Last edited by A and C; 27th Dec 2014 at 10:42.
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Breath alcohol metering
PPL Hobbyist -- I believe that gas spectrometry is the usual method, not a 'fuel cell'. Breath alc is not the same as blood alc; there is an accepted equation linking the two. In the early days of road testing the law in the UK used to state blood alcohol now driving with an excess of breath alcohol is also an offence.
Nobody is suggesting that the level of alcohol is an accurate measure of incapacity but it is a perfectly sensible and practicable way to test for those who shouldn't be flying or driving. So any correlation is academic. Zero is, of course, impracticable as the body produces ethanol. Nobody is 100% free of ethanol.
Nobody is suggesting that the level of alcohol is an accurate measure of incapacity but it is a perfectly sensible and practicable way to test for those who shouldn't be flying or driving. So any correlation is academic. Zero is, of course, impracticable as the body produces ethanol. Nobody is 100% free of ethanol.
I might be deflecting from the thread a bit, but reading this article from INDIA: 170 pilots caught reporting for duty under liquor effect , I was both shocked and not...
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Miraculix
Quick !! Let's all jump on this outrage bus !!
A typical piece of manipulation of facts from the press on a slow news day..... Let's try " Only 170 pilots test positive in five years " ...... Not much of a headline is it ?
This in fact represents a statistical chance of getting on an airliner with a pilot under the influence of alcohol of almost zero and I would guess far below that of being treated by a doctor or being sentenced by a judge who had consumed achohol before working.
Would the paper like to do a story on aircrew fatgue and its effects on flight safety ? ................ No too boring because it might shatter the under worked and overpaid pilot image that sells newspapers.
A typical piece of manipulation of facts from the press on a slow news day..... Let's try " Only 170 pilots test positive in five years " ...... Not much of a headline is it ?
This in fact represents a statistical chance of getting on an airliner with a pilot under the influence of alcohol of almost zero and I would guess far below that of being treated by a doctor or being sentenced by a judge who had consumed achohol before working.
Would the paper like to do a story on aircrew fatgue and its effects on flight safety ? ................ No too boring because it might shatter the under worked and overpaid pilot image that sells newspapers.
fatigue a far greater problem!
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Is this an 'outrage bus'?
A and C, I don't think it's entirely fair to call it an outrage bus. Public opinion has proved to be far more powerful than breath testing in keeping drink-drivers off the roads. When I was a lad we used to warn others of police traps. On one occasion in the mid 1980s my department boss, having found a police trap sited on the only road from the office Christmas party to the office, sat in his car half a mile before the trap and flagged down/flashed staff returning. That was regarded as a thoroughly decent thing to do. Today he'd be stripped naked, hanged by his ankles from a tree, castrated and left for the crows. Attitudes have changed.
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Lemain
From earlyer posts on the thread you will see that I don't condone flying under the influence of achohol in any way.
What I am trying to do is put the problem of achohol in avation into a realistic statistical context, only by doing this do we have the evidence to asses the risks and bring proper effort to mitigate the risks to flight safety.
Because it is easy to do so achohol takes up far more time in the press and on the pages of PPRUNE than it should with regard to the current level of risk it poses to flight safety, fatigue is a far bigger statistical risk than achohol but far harder to quantify and almost imposable to make a good headline for the newspapers.
The irony is that this topic was started when a pilot was taken off an aircraft to be checked for acohol at the police station, as this is a very simple test to administer and the CPS are not taking this to court due to lack of evidence one has to assume this is a case of one NOT drunk pilot getting a lot of press coverage.
So I have to ask you if you have been on an aircraft with a drunk pilot ? And have you been on an aircraft with a fatigued pilot ?
I am going to guess that your answer will indicate that the statistics show that tackling the fatigue problem should be the focus of flight safety efforts as the industry had done just about all it realisticly can to tackle the very small acohol problem as was demonstrated in this case.
What I am trying to do is put the problem of achohol in avation into a realistic statistical context, only by doing this do we have the evidence to asses the risks and bring proper effort to mitigate the risks to flight safety.
Because it is easy to do so achohol takes up far more time in the press and on the pages of PPRUNE than it should with regard to the current level of risk it poses to flight safety, fatigue is a far bigger statistical risk than achohol but far harder to quantify and almost imposable to make a good headline for the newspapers.
The irony is that this topic was started when a pilot was taken off an aircraft to be checked for acohol at the police station, as this is a very simple test to administer and the CPS are not taking this to court due to lack of evidence one has to assume this is a case of one NOT drunk pilot getting a lot of press coverage.
So I have to ask you if you have been on an aircraft with a drunk pilot ? And have you been on an aircraft with a fatigued pilot ?
I am going to guess that your answer will indicate that the statistics show that tackling the fatigue problem should be the focus of flight safety efforts as the industry had done just about all it realisticly can to tackle the very small acohol problem as was demonstrated in this case.
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Well said A and C.
Fatigue and stress pose a far greater problem to aviation than alcohol. A pilot is far more likely to go sick if he suspects he is close to the alcohol limit for whatever reason than for tiredness/fatigue.
I have guarded sympathy for those who have used alcohol through addiction or stress, quite probably to sleep, and have been caught and imprisoned and lost everything.
The industry needs to wake up to the real issue.
Fatigue and stress pose a far greater problem to aviation than alcohol. A pilot is far more likely to go sick if he suspects he is close to the alcohol limit for whatever reason than for tiredness/fatigue.
I have guarded sympathy for those who have used alcohol through addiction or stress, quite probably to sleep, and have been caught and imprisoned and lost everything.
The industry needs to wake up to the real issue.
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Surely the point is that both are issues. They are different issues. Agree about not banning someone for life after an alcohol conviction. All that training, experience wasted, and the effect on near and extended family, with cost to the state. Would be VERY easy to prevent offenders from re-offending in the airline industry. Not in General Aviation, tho'.
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Lemain
There is only one issue and that is flight safety and how the industry delivers the best response to the challenges within that remit.
I would argue that the airline industry's response to the issue of alcohol misuse is appropriate and robust, in other words now you could quadruple the money spent on enforce the alcohol rules and only get a 0.5 % increase in positive tests.
It therefore follows that the industry has now to move on to other more pressing issues that will spend the flight safety budget to achive the best increase in flight safety, my personal next flight safety target is the fatigue issue, clearly there are quite a few people on this forum who are in agreement but this is not the only issue that requires attention.
People have to understand that none of these issues are likely to make it to the front page of a newspaper, so should we let the headline writers of the Daily Mail control the flight safety agenda based on what sells newspapers or should we target the industry's flight safety efforts on issues that the statistics indicate will deliver the best improvement in flight safety.
I would argue that the airline industry's response to the issue of alcohol misuse is appropriate and robust, in other words now you could quadruple the money spent on enforce the alcohol rules and only get a 0.5 % increase in positive tests.
It therefore follows that the industry has now to move on to other more pressing issues that will spend the flight safety budget to achive the best increase in flight safety, my personal next flight safety target is the fatigue issue, clearly there are quite a few people on this forum who are in agreement but this is not the only issue that requires attention.
People have to understand that none of these issues are likely to make it to the front page of a newspaper, so should we let the headline writers of the Daily Mail control the flight safety agenda based on what sells newspapers or should we target the industry's flight safety efforts on issues that the statistics indicate will deliver the best improvement in flight safety.
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Surely the point is that both are issues. They are different issues. Agree about not banning someone for life after an alcohol conviction. All that training, experience wasted, and the effect on near and extended family, with cost to the state. Would be VERY easy to prevent offenders from re-offending in the airline industry. Not in General Aviation, tho'.
Judging from the spelling in the links at the top of the page, perhaps the author was not fully recovered in this ALPA sponsored listing of HIMS steps:
HIMS Steps
