Pilot over drink/drive limit removed from aircraft
Slight thread drift, but there seem to be regular incidents reported on the early morning traffic [before 7:00 am] reports of delays caused by a jack-knifed lorry even when the weather s perfect. I always wonder if these are caused by driver fatigue, or rather drivers driving at times to which their bodies are not accustomed.
I don't want to clog up this thread with comments from someone who isn't even in the aviation industry but I'd like to clarify a couple of points.
One post states that there's a difference between "a drinking problem" and "alcoholism". After almost a quarter century of interest in this subject I'd have to say that this is a meaningless distinction. Whichever label is chosen the phenomenon's the same. It could be said that the only really useful definition of "alcoholism" is one which is applied to an alcoholic by himself.
As for the notion that for people who have a serious compulsion to drink (avoiding for the moment the labels mentioned previously) it's quite possible to revert to "normal" drinking, I'd say that this is not borne out by either my own experience or by the evidence from studies I've read. Which is not to say that it's unknown. As best I recall, in the Harvard study there is evidence that amongst a blue-collar set of the sample there is evidence of this reversion where, after getting married and "settling down", some individuals who, during adolescence and early adulthood, had previously met the DSM criteria for alcoholism no longer did so.
But it looks more likely that after a sustained period of heavy alcohol use, whether episodic or regular, the behaviour pattern becomes "hard wired". Which is something alcoholism has in common with other behavioural disorders. Personally I'd rather like a glass of decent claret occasionally but the risk/reward ratio, having seen many people crash and burn after engaging in similar experiments, is unacceptable. Abstinence appears to be the only reliable solution.
Many "high-functioning" alcoholics may never be found drunk on the job for decades - or ever. Unfortunately the damage to emotional responses done by habitual drinking becomes significant long before intellectual or physical symptoms appear. This alone can significantly erode decision-making processes.
For anyone concerned about their own relationship with alcohol (or drugs for that matter) there are a number of questionnaires published which enable a rough evaluation. Here's one:
Alcohol Self Test | 20 Questions | 20 Question Alcohol Self Test | Alcohol self-test | Alcoholic Test | 20 Questions | AA
This derives from the 12-step AA movement which not everyone can stomach but it's useful. There are several others, essentially similar, widely available online. One thing I'm quite certain about is that having done these questionnaires at the beginning of their recovery and scored high enough to qualify, every alcoholic I know scored far higher when repeating the test a couple of years into sobriety - myself included! Denial is often the litmus test of alcoholism.
One post states that there's a difference between "a drinking problem" and "alcoholism". After almost a quarter century of interest in this subject I'd have to say that this is a meaningless distinction. Whichever label is chosen the phenomenon's the same. It could be said that the only really useful definition of "alcoholism" is one which is applied to an alcoholic by himself.
As for the notion that for people who have a serious compulsion to drink (avoiding for the moment the labels mentioned previously) it's quite possible to revert to "normal" drinking, I'd say that this is not borne out by either my own experience or by the evidence from studies I've read. Which is not to say that it's unknown. As best I recall, in the Harvard study there is evidence that amongst a blue-collar set of the sample there is evidence of this reversion where, after getting married and "settling down", some individuals who, during adolescence and early adulthood, had previously met the DSM criteria for alcoholism no longer did so.
But it looks more likely that after a sustained period of heavy alcohol use, whether episodic or regular, the behaviour pattern becomes "hard wired". Which is something alcoholism has in common with other behavioural disorders. Personally I'd rather like a glass of decent claret occasionally but the risk/reward ratio, having seen many people crash and burn after engaging in similar experiments, is unacceptable. Abstinence appears to be the only reliable solution.
Many "high-functioning" alcoholics may never be found drunk on the job for decades - or ever. Unfortunately the damage to emotional responses done by habitual drinking becomes significant long before intellectual or physical symptoms appear. This alone can significantly erode decision-making processes.
For anyone concerned about their own relationship with alcohol (or drugs for that matter) there are a number of questionnaires published which enable a rough evaluation. Here's one:
Alcohol Self Test | 20 Questions | 20 Question Alcohol Self Test | Alcohol self-test | Alcoholic Test | 20 Questions | AA
This derives from the 12-step AA movement which not everyone can stomach but it's useful. There are several others, essentially similar, widely available online. One thing I'm quite certain about is that having done these questionnaires at the beginning of their recovery and scored high enough to qualify, every alcoholic I know scored far higher when repeating the test a couple of years into sobriety - myself included! Denial is often the litmus test of alcoholism.
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westhawk in post 97 gives his version of events when he turned up for work at short notice and observed his FO was not up to the task (for whatever reason).
I wonder how others would react when you turn up in the hotel reception with all of the crew for a scheduled early morning departure from an island airfield, and the captain is not there? The FO phoned the captain, who mumbled that it was best if all the crew could continue to the airport, and prepare the aircraft for departure as he would join them as soon as possible. When the captain arrived shortly before departure time, he was clearly not capable of completing the flight, slurred speech, and a suspicion of alcohol on his breath, which was compounded when he could not complete the load sheet.
The FO refused to fly with the captain, who protested his innocence; it needed the local police to remove the protesting captain from his seat, and eventually be replaced by the standby captain who arrived an hour later from the same hotel.
All of this occurred a long time ago, in 1978 in fact, but how would you have responded, or recommended this FO to respond?
I wonder how others would react when you turn up in the hotel reception with all of the crew for a scheduled early morning departure from an island airfield, and the captain is not there? The FO phoned the captain, who mumbled that it was best if all the crew could continue to the airport, and prepare the aircraft for departure as he would join them as soon as possible. When the captain arrived shortly before departure time, he was clearly not capable of completing the flight, slurred speech, and a suspicion of alcohol on his breath, which was compounded when he could not complete the load sheet.
The FO refused to fly with the captain, who protested his innocence; it needed the local police to remove the protesting captain from his seat, and eventually be replaced by the standby captain who arrived an hour later from the same hotel.
All of this occurred a long time ago, in 1978 in fact, but how would you have responded, or recommended this FO to respond?
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Manrow there is plenty of good advice earlier in this thread.
I have been involved in aviation as a professional pilot long enough to know that whilst alcohol and flying should not be allowed, by far the biggest problem for aviation safety is fatigue; mentioned earlier on this thread here and eloquently put by C and A.
I also instruct Human Factors, and in that role I am obliged to study in detail the reports of air accidents. This further convinces me that fatigue is what should grab headlines, but sorting out that problem would cost money and put up the price of the ticket.
The industry will be "happy" to see headlines about drunk pilots because it is an easy "problem" to solve, thereby making their actions and those of the regulators and law makers appear to be effective , whilst it diverts attention away from the true threat to safety which is fatiguing work patterns and shifts. Add to that a general lowering of pay and T and Cs, and the stage is set.
I have been involved in aviation as a professional pilot long enough to know that whilst alcohol and flying should not be allowed, by far the biggest problem for aviation safety is fatigue; mentioned earlier on this thread here and eloquently put by C and A.
I also instruct Human Factors, and in that role I am obliged to study in detail the reports of air accidents. This further convinces me that fatigue is what should grab headlines, but sorting out that problem would cost money and put up the price of the ticket.
The industry will be "happy" to see headlines about drunk pilots because it is an easy "problem" to solve, thereby making their actions and those of the regulators and law makers appear to be effective , whilst it diverts attention away from the true threat to safety which is fatiguing work patterns and shifts. Add to that a general lowering of pay and T and Cs, and the stage is set.
Last edited by Mowgli; 12th Nov 2014 at 09:46. Reason: Grammar.
Very good thread going on here--probably the best so far as it is folding in what is an equally dangerous impairment in fatigue/tiredness.
Unfortunately these discussions usually have just devolved into a dogfight. Glad to see some serious and thoughtful input!
I would agree that from my experience in the industry that tiredness/fatigue is a real and constant threat and one that we as piloting groups are just starting to push back with.
Unfortunately these discussions usually have just devolved into a dogfight. Glad to see some serious and thoughtful input!
I would agree that from my experience in the industry that tiredness/fatigue is a real and constant threat and one that we as piloting groups are just starting to push back with.
Meanwhile another operator and another airport:
Pilot admits to being over drink-fly limit | UK news | The Guardian
In this case Norwich and a Canadair Challenger so probably a private charter rather than an holiday flight.
Pilot admits to being over drink-fly limit | UK news | The Guardian
In this case Norwich and a Canadair Challenger so probably a private charter rather than an holiday flight.
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Ok, I know the rules are the rules but: I actually feel sympathy for this gentleman.
It’s as usual the press I feel contempt for, headline: PILOT 3 TIMES OVER THE LIMIT. Now 99% of the population thinks that this man was absolutely hammered.
As we know he wasn’t 3 times over the driving limit but the flying limit which puts him under the driving limit. And if you can’t drink a pint of lager before you fly an a/c or drive a car safely. You really should not be doing it.
My last point: Flying an a/c is obviously “harder” than driving a truck/bus. But thousands of them/me are on the road every day, well above the a/c flying limit. And most a/c guys have a number 2 for backup that you don’t get in your bus full
Of 50 passengers that potentially could plough into another bus with as many?
Crown court? I really have lost the will to live
It’s as usual the press I feel contempt for, headline: PILOT 3 TIMES OVER THE LIMIT. Now 99% of the population thinks that this man was absolutely hammered.
As we know he wasn’t 3 times over the driving limit but the flying limit which puts him under the driving limit. And if you can’t drink a pint of lager before you fly an a/c or drive a car safely. You really should not be doing it.
My last point: Flying an a/c is obviously “harder” than driving a truck/bus. But thousands of them/me are on the road every day, well above the a/c flying limit. And most a/c guys have a number 2 for backup that you don’t get in your bus full
Of 50 passengers that potentially could plough into another bus with as many?
Crown court? I really have lost the will to live
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Read it!
If you had read the report then you would notice that he was three times over the limit AFTER flying from Spain. It is extremely likely that he would have been well over the drink drive limit too when he started his duty. He would have metabolised a fair amount of alcohol by the time he got to Norwich. I would not want my family flying with this man; what I would like to see however is him receive suitable rehabilitation so that he can go back to his occupation.
We are lucky to have a limit in UK, other countries have a zero limit which would be even easier to bust. Like it or not that is the law and we all have to abide by it.
We are lucky to have a limit in UK, other countries have a zero limit which would be even easier to bust. Like it or not that is the law and we all have to abide by it.
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Ah... in the good old days in the "operational area", us Air Force types would amaze the Pongo's with our strict application of the rules...no smoking 8 hours before the flight and no drinking within 30 metres of the aircraft...
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Please don't get me wrong. I 100% agree with what you have said. My point being: As per, the bloody press has used a headline that is not wrong but has given the impression that jocks fly while very drunk indeed.
I don't know the chap, but to go to crown court with a chance of going down for 2 years? Now that is very wrong
I don't know the chap, but to go to crown court with a chance of going down for 2 years? Now that is very wrong
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A captain is responsible for the lives of many hundreds of people, on the ground as well as in the air, every working day.If he turns up for work impaired, then he faces the consequences. Of course there should be help before-hand, but no impaired pilot should take command.
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I don’t know the answer to said gentleman’s punishment but insist a possible 2 years inside is way over the top.
The posters who are disagreeing with me…..what do you think the appropriate is then?
Incidentally I only replied initially because of the headline of “Pilot 3 times over the limit” that was hugely misleading to Joe on the street/myself.
The posters who are disagreeing with me…..what do you think the appropriate is then?
Incidentally I only replied initially because of the headline of “Pilot 3 times over the limit” that was hugely misleading to Joe on the street/myself.
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People are approaching this from the wrong angle. It appears that (quite correctly) fatigue is worse than alcohol, so alcohol is more acceptable.
You can have more than one problem in the industry you know!!!
Those who say that they would rather have a hungover pilot over a tired one..... WTF???
I want NEITHER in the cockpit. This isn't Top Trumps, the highest problem wins.........
You can have more than one problem in the industry you know!!!
Those who say that they would rather have a hungover pilot over a tired one..... WTF???
I want NEITHER in the cockpit. This isn't Top Trumps, the highest problem wins.........
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My proposal for alternate punishment to two years in stir would depend on several factors.
What is his seniority, age and general history with the company? Senior, approaching retirement with good history? A 30 day unpaid suspension with requirement to take some alcohol counseling. Newby with spotty record and possible problems with past employers? Sayonara Sweetheart...don't look to us for a reference.
I think if his drinking had resulted in a crash with serious or fatal injuries, few would question the appropriateness of a jail sentence.
What is his seniority, age and general history with the company? Senior, approaching retirement with good history? A 30 day unpaid suspension with requirement to take some alcohol counseling. Newby with spotty record and possible problems with past employers? Sayonara Sweetheart...don't look to us for a reference.
I think if his drinking had resulted in a crash with serious or fatal injuries, few would question the appropriateness of a jail sentence.
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Coltishall. loved it
I assume the Magistrates Court concluded that the case should be dealt by a Judge in the Crown Court where the maximum penalty is 2 years imprisonment and/or a fine. (The relevant legislation allows Magistrates Courts to deal with an offence of this nature but not to impose a prison sentence.)
I don't know if my assumption is correct nor, if it is, why the Magistrates Court came to that conclusion.
That is the maximum term of imprisonment which can be imposed but, to date, never has been.
Penalties have included fines, suspended sentences and immediate imprisonment. I haven't checked recently but, to the best of my recollection, the longest immediate prison sentence imposed in the UK to date is nine months.
Good question.
I can readily understand why opinions differ about whether an immediate prison sentence is appropriate where a pilot was not way over the limit, has a long unblemished history, admitted his guilt at the earliest opportunity etc.
I agree with you about the frequently misleading, and sometimes absurdly inaccurate 'drunk pilot', headlines. However, attention-grabbing headlines and melodramatic stories sell newspapers so the practice is very unlikely to change.
I don't know the chap, but to go to crown court with a chance of going down for 2 years? Now that is very wrong.
I don't know if my assumption is correct nor, if it is, why the Magistrates Court came to that conclusion.
I don’t know the answer to said gentleman’s punishment but insist a possible 2 years inside is way over the top.
Penalties have included fines, suspended sentences and immediate imprisonment. I haven't checked recently but, to the best of my recollection, the longest immediate prison sentence imposed in the UK to date is nine months.
The posters who are disagreeing with me…..what do you think the appropriate is then?
I can readily understand why opinions differ about whether an immediate prison sentence is appropriate where a pilot was not way over the limit, has a long unblemished history, admitted his guilt at the earliest opportunity etc.
I agree with you about the frequently misleading, and sometimes absurdly inaccurate 'drunk pilot', headlines. However, attention-grabbing headlines and melodramatic stories sell newspapers so the practice is very unlikely to change.
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This thread has rightly matured to include the debilitating effect of fatigue on human performance.
There also seems to be an acceptance that fatigue is a bigger problem than alcohol.
That may be so, but as far as the effect on performance is concerned they are surely equal?
I do not know of any research that demonstrates whether one is better than the other, but we need to be aware that either or both together are likely to result in at least an incident/accident/fatality.
There seems to be an acceptance that alcohol consumption is a question of degree, i.e. how much is still affecting the individual at a moment in time; that is of course true, but as far as driving is concerned in the UK there is a lively debate on how much one can drink to establish whether a breathalyzer conviction is likely or not. My submission is that in aviation terms the answer has to be assumed to be zero, and we should move towards that as the acceptable limit.
There also seems to be an acceptance that fatigue is a bigger problem than alcohol.
That may be so, but as far as the effect on performance is concerned they are surely equal?
I do not know of any research that demonstrates whether one is better than the other, but we need to be aware that either or both together are likely to result in at least an incident/accident/fatality.
There seems to be an acceptance that alcohol consumption is a question of degree, i.e. how much is still affecting the individual at a moment in time; that is of course true, but as far as driving is concerned in the UK there is a lively debate on how much one can drink to establish whether a breathalyzer conviction is likely or not. My submission is that in aviation terms the answer has to be assumed to be zero, and we should move towards that as the acceptable limit.