Toxic Cabin Air/Aerotoxic Syndrome
Heading possibly more off-topic, there are predictions though that the proportion could eventually reach 90%, as well as assertions that as electric cars are heavier, they may cause more of these.
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Fume Events
Fume events, with adverse effects on crew and passengers, are gaining more attention.
I am wondering:
When they notice the fume event, can the flight crew identify the faulty engine?
Can they shut off the bleed air from that engine, or if not, are they permitted to shut that engine down?
Can either engine on its own maintain cabin pressure?
Is it their decision whether to land as soon as possible?
Niallo
I am wondering:
When they notice the fume event, can the flight crew identify the faulty engine?
Can they shut off the bleed air from that engine, or if not, are they permitted to shut that engine down?
Can either engine on its own maintain cabin pressure?
Is it their decision whether to land as soon as possible?
Niallo
Handkerchiefs over noses? I think I would have felt sick too, seeing that smoke.
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180521_19/
8 passengers on ANA aircraft fall sick after smoke fills cabin
CHIBA
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20180521_19/
8 passengers on ANA aircraft fall sick after smoke fills cabinCHIBA
Over 100 passengers on an All Nippon Airways Co flight bound for Hong Kong were evacuated from the plane at Narita airport and eight of them fell sick Monday after smoke filled the cabin, officials of the airline and the airport said.
The trouble occurred at around 9:45 a.m. on a Boeing 767 aircraft with around 140 passengers and crew on board shortly before the plane's takeoff, they said.
According to the airline known as ANA, oil from the aircraft's auxiliary power unit was sucked into the cabin through the air conditioner ducts after it had vaporized.
While the cause of the leak has still not been determined, no fire occurred, ANA said.
The trouble occurred at around 9:45 a.m. on a Boeing 767 aircraft with around 140 passengers and crew on board shortly before the plane's takeoff, they said.
According to the airline known as ANA, oil from the aircraft's auxiliary power unit was sucked into the cabin through the air conditioner ducts after it had vaporized.
While the cause of the leak has still not been determined, no fire occurred, ANA said.
Last edited by jolihokistix; 21st May 2018 at 12:18.
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Checklist for 'Dirty sock odor'??
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/9-invest...crew/803838010
American Airline pilots now have a checklist for odors....
Dirty Sock = OIL + neurotoxic
Worth making a memory item?
American Airline pilots now have a checklist for odors....
Dirty Sock = OIL + neurotoxic
Worth making a memory item?
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BBC & Aerotoxic - 1st January 2019 - World Service
Every 10 years the BBC updates it's licence fee payers with a recorded (not live, as not allowed) history lesson of whether 'so-called' Aerotoxic Syndrome (1999) exists or not?
Y/N?
The next hour long RADIO programme has been scheduled for 0100 on the World service on 1st January 2019 - as most Europeans are in bed, drunk from New Year celebrations, but it is due to be replayed later in the day.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?filter=...es&q=aerotoxic
For the record, here is the last BBC Panorama programme from 21st April 2008 about this cause of mass serious ill health caused by 'bleed air' in jet airliners and how a group of passengers (including children) were Aerotoxic Poisoned on 1st February 2007...
It will be most interesting to learn from the BBC exactly how the legal case of the passengers they reported ten years ago finally ended?
Happy New Year to all & many congratulations to Easyjet & Pall Aerospace for seeing the opportunity to be FIRST & make masses of money out of installing the new filters & poison detector available solutions in 2019...
Don't forget to set your alarm!!
Y/N?
The next hour long RADIO programme has been scheduled for 0100 on the World service on 1st January 2019 - as most Europeans are in bed, drunk from New Year celebrations, but it is due to be replayed later in the day.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/search?filter=...es&q=aerotoxic
For the record, here is the last BBC Panorama programme from 21st April 2008 about this cause of mass serious ill health caused by 'bleed air' in jet airliners and how a group of passengers (including children) were Aerotoxic Poisoned on 1st February 2007...
It will be most interesting to learn from the BBC exactly how the legal case of the passengers they reported ten years ago finally ended?
Happy New Year to all & many congratulations to Easyjet & Pall Aerospace for seeing the opportunity to be FIRST & make masses of money out of installing the new filters & poison detector available solutions in 2019...
Don't forget to set your alarm!!
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Latest BBC radio programme from 0100 1st January 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172w0q34d6cs2y
Any journalists wishing to know more evidence go to: BBC latest history failure on so-called Aerotoxicity 1st January 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w172w0q34d6cs2y
Any journalists wishing to know more evidence go to: BBC latest history failure on so-called Aerotoxicity 1st January 2019
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Rogwk - could you contact me please & I'll fill you in.Thanks. [email protected]
Dream Buster
Since you're very obviously on a crusade on this subject, would you mind addressing the points raised in posts 352 and 356?
Or are you ignoring that because it doesn't fit the narrative?
Since you're very obviously on a crusade on this subject, would you mind addressing the points raised in posts 352 and 356?
Or are you ignoring that because it doesn't fit the narrative?
The points made in those posts are irrelevant to this discussion, which concerns the effects of inhalation of toxins within aircraft due to bleed air containing the toxins being used to supply the cabin. Pollution outside the aircraft whilst maybe worthy of separate discussion is not relevant here.
Last edited by snooky; 2nd Jan 2019 at 22:50.
Last time I checked, people - including aircrew - breath around airports. Aircraft ECS systems use engine bleed air when they are on the ground and near airports. Aircraft exhaust on the ground includes significant amounts of engine lube oil (most turbine engines consume far more oil at/near idle then they do at power due to the way the lube systems work). If there is a problem with the air around airports, people - like pilots - who spend a lot of time at airports would be at risk.
If aerotoxicity is in fact an issue, how can you categorically state the issue isn't due to the air at the airport if no one is checking?
If aerotoxicity is in fact an issue, how can you categorically state the issue isn't due to the air at the airport if no one is checking?
Does anyone have information on environmental system contamination in Airbus aircraft after an engine compressor wash using Lufthansa cyclean techniques? The fumes are the dirty sox / oil type fumes in many cases and are giving crew headaches, disorientation, flushes, facial tingling and cognitive confusion.
tdracer
Without doubt, the air around airports isn't going to be great. However, in the case of Airbus, they claim their ECS producers air quality on the tarmac due filtering at very high levels ( see Fastrack magazine references ). Oil and other contaminants pumped straight off the engine into the mixing unit is longer lasting in my experience.
tdracer
Without doubt, the air around airports isn't going to be great. However, in the case of Airbus, they claim their ECS producers air quality on the tarmac due filtering at very high levels ( see Fastrack magazine references ). Oil and other contaminants pumped straight off the engine into the mixing unit is longer lasting in my experience.
i’m merely stating that this thread is about toxic cabin air. External contamination is a subject worthy of discussion but should not divert the thread from it’s subject, this being toxic air [b]in the cabin.
And I'm simply point out that if the air being sucked in from outside is contaminated, then the air inside will be similarly contaminated. Any meaningful analysis needs to look at the entire system. If the ECS system can't filter out contamination coming from the engine internals, then it won't be able to filter out similar contamination coming from outside the aircraft.
Look, a fume event caused by an engine oil leak is bad news for the people who are breathing the fumes. No argument. But such events are rare (especially since the most common culprit engine/aircraft are disappearing from service). Before I retired, I checked the incoming 21.3 reports at Boeing for fume events for about six months. There were a number of fume events, but only three were somehow related to the ECS system - most were galley events with the odd electrical smoke event. Of the three, one was an improper engine water wash, one was reported as an actual engine oil leak, and one was an air-cycle machine failure on a 787 (you know, the one aircraft that doesn't use engine bleed air). So fume events due to engine faults are pretty uncommon. (BTW Gnadenburg, while it certainly smells unpleasant, the stuff they use for an engine water wash is pretty benign - many use just plain water. If there is anything particularly toxic, it came from the 'dirt' that was washed off the blades, not from the cleaning solutions. If the wash is done properly the bleeds are blocked such that nothing gets into the bleed system, but sometimes mistakes are made).
What is often claimed is that 'normal' engine bleed air is a hazard - but there is little data to support that. If the infinitesimally small amounts of engine oil that finds its way into the engine bleed system from a healthy engine is a hazard, then the far higher concentrations that get sucked into the aircraft at and around the airport would constitute a hazard.
Look, a fume event caused by an engine oil leak is bad news for the people who are breathing the fumes. No argument. But such events are rare (especially since the most common culprit engine/aircraft are disappearing from service). Before I retired, I checked the incoming 21.3 reports at Boeing for fume events for about six months. There were a number of fume events, but only three were somehow related to the ECS system - most were galley events with the odd electrical smoke event. Of the three, one was an improper engine water wash, one was reported as an actual engine oil leak, and one was an air-cycle machine failure on a 787 (you know, the one aircraft that doesn't use engine bleed air). So fume events due to engine faults are pretty uncommon. (BTW Gnadenburg, while it certainly smells unpleasant, the stuff they use for an engine water wash is pretty benign - many use just plain water. If there is anything particularly toxic, it came from the 'dirt' that was washed off the blades, not from the cleaning solutions. If the wash is done properly the bleeds are blocked such that nothing gets into the bleed system, but sometimes mistakes are made).
What is often claimed is that 'normal' engine bleed air is a hazard - but there is little data to support that. If the infinitesimally small amounts of engine oil that finds its way into the engine bleed system from a healthy engine is a hazard, then the far higher concentrations that get sucked into the aircraft at and around the airport would constitute a hazard.
Having flown types which are notorious for fumes for over 20 years and now suffering from the effects, my view is that it’s the small cumilative effects that are the main problem. Many on here will be familiar “sweaty socks” odour, often shortly after the start of descent. Evidence of such is obtainable, but little effort seems to have been expended over obtaining it.
This is not to say that toxins do not come in other ways, but in my view having experienced it daily for many years the relatively small leaks are the biggest problem.
This is not to say that toxins do not come in other ways, but in my view having experienced it daily for many years the relatively small leaks are the biggest problem.
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2019 Aircraft Cabin Air Conference 17/18 September 2019
The issue of contaminated air has been discussed on this forum for over a decade so I wanted to bring to your attention that the flight safety issues of contaminated air on aircraft will be discussed at the 2019 Aircraft Cabin Air Conference on 17/18 September in London. The conference will also look at the regulatory and legal aspects of this issue, the health implications and the solutions available to aircraft operators.
The 2019 Aircraft Cabin Air Conference is supported by over 30 crew unions globally and is an industry supported event sponsored by Pall Aerospace and BASF to name a few (companies offering solutions to the problem).
I attended the 2017 conference and I found the conference really helped increase my understanding of the issue.
More details at:
https://www.aircraftcabinair.com/
The issue of contaminated air has been discussed on this forum for over a decade so I wanted to bring to your attention that the flight safety issues of contaminated air on aircraft will be discussed at the 2019 Aircraft Cabin Air Conference on 17/18 September in London. The conference will also look at the regulatory and legal aspects of this issue, the health implications and the solutions available to aircraft operators.
The 2019 Aircraft Cabin Air Conference is supported by over 30 crew unions globally and is an industry supported event sponsored by Pall Aerospace and BASF to name a few (companies offering solutions to the problem).
I attended the 2017 conference and I found the conference really helped increase my understanding of the issue.
More details at:
https://www.aircraftcabinair.com/
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Pilots and cabin crew from five airlines including BA and easyJet launch court battle
https://www.aerotoxic.org/pilots-cab...-mail-28-3-19/
https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...c-air-dispute/
https://unitetheunion.org/news-event...c-air-dispute/
Last edited by Dream Buster; 28th Mar 2019 at 21:04. Reason: Forgot some evidence
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Latest Aerotoxic High Court action
Latest High Court action in London:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ourt-case.html
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/08/ba-pi...9gNH5TJAFULpXM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ourt-case.html
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/08/ba-pi...9gNH5TJAFULpXM
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A few 'Accidents' to report in June 2019
Accident: British Airways A320 near Tenerife on Jun 23rd 2019, fumes in cockpit and cabin
Incident: British Airways A321 near London on Jun 23rd 2019, fumes in the cockpit
Accident: British Airways A320 near Frankfurt on Jun 18th 2019, fumes injure passengers and cabin crew
Incident: British Airways A321 at Sofia on Jun 15th 2019, fumes in cockpit
Accident: British Airways A321 near Copenhagen on Jun 8th 2019, fumes on board
Incident: British Airways A321 near London on Jun 23rd 2019, fumes in the cockpit
Accident: British Airways A320 near Frankfurt on Jun 18th 2019, fumes injure passengers and cabin crew
Incident: British Airways A321 at Sofia on Jun 15th 2019, fumes in cockpit
Accident: British Airways A321 near Copenhagen on Jun 8th 2019, fumes on board
