Flybe pilots fired after flight deck row
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Having read this thread with interest, my view is that once the "incident" had been brought to official attention, it was inevitable and just that they would both be sacked:Colgan Air Flight 3407 springs to mind as an example of the consequences of not concentrating on the job in hand.Reporting themselves immediately afterwards just demonstrates how deeply they were involved in their disagreement, and how little involved they were with the wider implications!
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These two dudes likely already knew they had a problem with each other.
Prior contact with management could have resulted in one or both retaining their job. In the absence of pre-settlement, one of them needed to call sick before take-off, to reduce the known risk. The first to "complain" or the F/O, is not automatically the one needing further training or dismissal.
Pre and post CRM I have requested to not fly with a couple of pilots and in another earlier case, while still an F/O on probation, I made it clear enough that I would not fly with an alcoholic captain who soon lost his job. In all these cases I am certain that actual military backgrounds was not a factor.
It is hard to risk a job, built up security and seniority for principles. It has always turned out that it is not that I refuse, but how I approach my company to solve a safety problem.
Crew management is not just CRM. Every contact with cockpit and cabin crew members should be with a thought at the back of the mind that you would, by example, encourage them to walk on burning coals for a safe flight. Just part of the job, like proper rest, check rides, sim, studying FOM etc.
Sometimes, as an expat, there may be cultural considerations that prevent your best efforts resulting in a sufficiently safe flight. The choice may be to resign or stick to your minimum safe principles and risk dismissal.
Prior contact with management could have resulted in one or both retaining their job. In the absence of pre-settlement, one of them needed to call sick before take-off, to reduce the known risk. The first to "complain" or the F/O, is not automatically the one needing further training or dismissal.
Pre and post CRM I have requested to not fly with a couple of pilots and in another earlier case, while still an F/O on probation, I made it clear enough that I would not fly with an alcoholic captain who soon lost his job. In all these cases I am certain that actual military backgrounds was not a factor.
It is hard to risk a job, built up security and seniority for principles. It has always turned out that it is not that I refuse, but how I approach my company to solve a safety problem.
Crew management is not just CRM. Every contact with cockpit and cabin crew members should be with a thought at the back of the mind that you would, by example, encourage them to walk on burning coals for a safe flight. Just part of the job, like proper rest, check rides, sim, studying FOM etc.
Sometimes, as an expat, there may be cultural considerations that prevent your best efforts resulting in a sufficiently safe flight. The choice may be to resign or stick to your minimum safe principles and risk dismissal.
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Now we have exhausted nearly every possible angle about this subject, whats this 'fanny waving' all about that flow wedge mentions? That i'd like to see whether it be on the flight deck or in the bar after!!!!
This is not a black&white issue, yes there are many shades of grey. I expressed an opinion, as anyone on here is entitled to do & it is this; In this day and age if you pursue a career as a military pilot that should be your career, end of. Military people go on and on about superior, no expense spared training, combat experience, blah blah blah.......well, if its so good, STICK WITH IT. Do not arrive in our world with a nice easy conversion (multicrew IR, with help from the taxpayer, who, btw paid for your training in the first place) and expect slavish respect for your military "credentials". You ex mil people, are, to be honest, "johnny come latelys" so apply the principle of rank, that you seem to respect so much, and learn from the civvy whos more senior to you. Unless you are being arrogant and hypocritical of course. Too many mil pilots treat civilian flying as some sort of pension scheme. This seems to be a modern phenomenon. I've known ex RAF pilots from the 60's/70's/80's who have come into the "real world" and have been willing to learn & been good blokes and everyone has got on superbly. Something is very wrong with the "modern" airforce..... Oh, btw i did fly a Citation a dozen years ago....& i learnt a lot from it too. I now fly an aircraft thats much more luxurious than a tornado/typhoon/C17 whatever, and thats what aviation is all about; getting from A to B,fast, safely, and in comfort. Goodnight.
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Unfortunately, the private/business jet community probably has a disproportionate number of irrational egotists with sociopathic and psycopathic tendencies who are unemployable elsewhere.
On behalf of the more sane, rational and socially enlightened members of the business/private community - I apologise for the post above by 'Private Jet'
On behalf of the more sane, rational and socially enlightened members of the business/private community - I apologise for the post above by 'Private Jet'
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Thank you jungle drums for your excellent summing up. Private jet - your posts about ex-military pilots are completely irrational and are broadly similar to someone who was mugged by a black youth 25 years ago hating all blacks for the rest of his life. You may indeed have met some bad apples from the RAF, but they are few and far between. I have met a handful of people who believe military fast jet training was superior to civilian training. I have been through numerous military fast jet and civilian airliner courses and none was better than my British Airways Airbus course at Cranebank. Fast Jet training teaches you to fly a particular fast jet in that role and nothing more. I found RAF training hard work and with some truly dreadful instruction. My civil training had many positive aspects and taught me how to fly a civilian airliner in all weathers, and for the most part the instructors were very good. When I left the RAF, I took the view that what was past was past, I now had new tricks to learn and that was that. Bearing in mind you need so much more experience to be a civilian Captain than a military one, I can only commend the quality of the Captains I have found in civilian life and their level of professional knowledge. As with the civilian world, RAF folk come in all shapes and sizes without any particular personality predominant. I find your sweeping generalisations totally inaccurate and bearing no relation to my own personal observations of the real world. I suspect most other people will feel the same.
We should stop being horrid to Private Jet. Anyone who has to struggle through life with a chip that big on his shoulder deserves our sympathy. Even if it has left him unbalanced.
I can remember a captain on an airline that I used to work for who had exactly the same attitude as Private Jet.
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
I can remember a captain on an airline that I used to work for who had exactly the same attitude as Private Jet.
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
I can remember a captain on an airline that I used to work for who had exactly the same attitude as Private Jet.
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
He was known by everyone (including the girls) as the Unaccompanied Minor".
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not a good post private jet...
That said and if I was Private Jets barrister...could I argue that the mil pilots leaving the services now are not the same product that left ten years ago....
There's lots of complaining about serviceability, lack of flying with some mil guys struggling to crack the minimum standards put out by NATO...
So you can't have it both ways chaps steely eyed aviators bringing all the acquired skills you've learnt to the civil market or well trained coffee drinkers that are at best not very current....discuss
And before I get flamed and we all get told we've got more skills in little fingers etc etc, these are views from mil guys in the mil forum so don't shoot the messenger.
It's a shame there's not more mil guys in corporate, I always feel a bit sorry for the ex mil guy struggling to make 5-600 fpm with the autopilot engaged in the Virgin 340-600 crossing the M25 out of LHR....and struggle to think of a transferable skill he's applying (emer/abs excepted). Maybe he/she has had his fill of excitement and the money's more important who knows.
There certainly more hands on in corporate and the salarys are comparable eventually
That said and if I was Private Jets barrister...could I argue that the mil pilots leaving the services now are not the same product that left ten years ago....
There's lots of complaining about serviceability, lack of flying with some mil guys struggling to crack the minimum standards put out by NATO...
So you can't have it both ways chaps steely eyed aviators bringing all the acquired skills you've learnt to the civil market or well trained coffee drinkers that are at best not very current....discuss
And before I get flamed and we all get told we've got more skills in little fingers etc etc, these are views from mil guys in the mil forum so don't shoot the messenger.
It's a shame there's not more mil guys in corporate, I always feel a bit sorry for the ex mil guy struggling to make 5-600 fpm with the autopilot engaged in the Virgin 340-600 crossing the M25 out of LHR....and struggle to think of a transferable skill he's applying (emer/abs excepted). Maybe he/she has had his fill of excitement and the money's more important who knows.
There certainly more hands on in corporate and the salarys are comparable eventually
Gentleman Aviator
Having read the whole thread before posting (as many others clearly haven't) I will say again in an attempt to remove an irrelevance .....
Akers the FO WAS NOT AN EX-MILITARY PILOT!!
Ex-Military - yes. He was a Supply Officer (aka storeman/logistician/blanket stacker) He was a Pilot - yes. He "self-improved" and hours built as an Assistant Instructor AFTER LEAVING THE MILITARY.
So whilst all these views on military trained pilots in airlines are fascinating (sic) and show that "chips with everything" (on shoulders) are not confined to the military - these views HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE TO THIS INCIDENT OR THREAD.
Akers WAS NOT MILITARY TRAINED!! Now do you get it.
Yes - I know I'm shouting - for the benefit of the hard of thinking ......
Akers the FO WAS NOT AN EX-MILITARY PILOT!!
Ex-Military - yes. He was a Supply Officer (aka storeman/logistician/blanket stacker) He was a Pilot - yes. He "self-improved" and hours built as an Assistant Instructor AFTER LEAVING THE MILITARY.So whilst all these views on military trained pilots in airlines are fascinating (sic) and show that "chips with everything" (on shoulders) are not confined to the military - these views HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE TO THIS INCIDENT OR THREAD.
Akers WAS NOT MILITARY TRAINED!! Now do you get it.
Yes - I know I'm shouting - for the benefit of the hard of thinking ......
I think we should stop thinking in terms of so-and-so is "military" etc. Everyone is an individual. Over the years I spent a fair bit of my time "converting" ex military pilots when they entered their first airline job in the civil environment. (I speak as one who was not in the military). The vast majority of these pilots applied themselves diligently and fitted well into the civil environment and made a huge contribution. A tiny minority had "issues" (but then again that happened with some who were civil trained) which had to be addressed during training but this was rare.
From a different perspective, after a family bereavement and the need for child care etc meant I could not continue as an airline pilot for a few years, I became a Military Flying Instructor. As you can imagine this was an interesting experience but have to say that the support, training etc I was given from my military instructors was second to none. They went out of their way to make me feel comfortable in the environment and also competent.
A lot also depends on the Company culture. The way the Board treats the management reflects in the way the Chief Pilots etc treat their Captain and crews. This, in turn, affects how Captains treat their crews and, incidentally, how cabin crew treat the passengers. In a well run and managed Company the type of incident which started this thread would never have seen the light of day.
In conclusion let's start working as a team - if people have a "chip on their shoulders" then perhaps we should find out why and start suggesting some solutions.
From a different perspective, after a family bereavement and the need for child care etc meant I could not continue as an airline pilot for a few years, I became a Military Flying Instructor. As you can imagine this was an interesting experience but have to say that the support, training etc I was given from my military instructors was second to none. They went out of their way to make me feel comfortable in the environment and also competent.
A lot also depends on the Company culture. The way the Board treats the management reflects in the way the Chief Pilots etc treat their Captain and crews. This, in turn, affects how Captains treat their crews and, incidentally, how cabin crew treat the passengers. In a well run and managed Company the type of incident which started this thread would never have seen the light of day.
In conclusion let's start working as a team - if people have a "chip on their shoulders" then perhaps we should find out why and start suggesting some solutions.
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Truly an unedifying event for all involved.
Private Jet, your post was amazing and entertains me greatly. I just pray you're never in a position of influence.
G-SPOTs lost - I would strongly caution against quoting from the mil forum on todays issues. I know for a fact that very few currently serving mil people frequent that forum (1 possibly 2 from the superbase near Oxford), with the majority of contributors being ex military types of a certain vintage with a very out of date and inaccurate perception of current problems.
You get buffoons in every walk of life - with the military there's no exception, you just get on with the job as a true professional. From what I've seen so far its not that much different from the civilian sector.
Private Jet, your post was amazing and entertains me greatly. I just pray you're never in a position of influence.
G-SPOTs lost - I would strongly caution against quoting from the mil forum on todays issues. I know for a fact that very few currently serving mil people frequent that forum (1 possibly 2 from the superbase near Oxford), with the majority of contributors being ex military types of a certain vintage with a very out of date and inaccurate perception of current problems.
You get buffoons in every walk of life - with the military there's no exception, you just get on with the job as a true professional. From what I've seen so far its not that much different from the civilian sector.
fireflybob, I have to say that your last post was like a breath of fresh air on this thread.
Up to now it's been mostly a lot like an extended version of the few minutes of a Jeremy Kyle show I once watched - an appalling washing of dirty linen in public. I would have been a lot happier reading the discussion about this if the names of the individuals involved had not been in the public domain. As it is it just makes me feel very sad for both of them.
Up to now it's been mostly a lot like an extended version of the few minutes of a Jeremy Kyle show I once watched - an appalling washing of dirty linen in public. I would have been a lot happier reading the discussion about this if the names of the individuals involved had not been in the public domain. As it is it just makes me feel very sad for both of them.
quite a shock
to find this sort of Jeremy Kyle behaviour happen on a UK flight deck beggars belief...why did it get this far to fall apart.
i think firefly bob sums up completely what could be wrong with lo-cost airline management today.
these Flybe pilots were acting like 2 little spotty chavs off an estate or 2 gang wannabee's from south London...
'you are my bitch' springs to mind...not least bit funny...nor
would it endear you to anyone, let alone to your colleagues/peers.
dare none of us would use that phrase to anyone except someone you knew that close had the same ' banter' tolerance as you did...
if the skipper had said that to his no.1 CC then there would be
a tribunal fluttering around for sexual harassment/bullying before you could
say '2 teas, no sugar please'.
my best mate always burps then breathes it all over me...we laugh
and THAT is being tolerant. (and disgusting lol
)
shame these guys lost their careers over such playground antics but
these antics have no place at work at FL310 in bad wx with 75 people strapped to your bottoms.
i think firefly bob sums up completely what could be wrong with lo-cost airline management today.
these Flybe pilots were acting like 2 little spotty chavs off an estate or 2 gang wannabee's from south London...
'you are my bitch' springs to mind...not least bit funny...nor
would it endear you to anyone, let alone to your colleagues/peers.
dare none of us would use that phrase to anyone except someone you knew that close had the same ' banter' tolerance as you did...
if the skipper had said that to his no.1 CC then there would be
a tribunal fluttering around for sexual harassment/bullying before you could
say '2 teas, no sugar please'.
my best mate always burps then breathes it all over me...we laugh
and THAT is being tolerant. (and disgusting lol
)shame these guys lost their careers over such playground antics but
these antics have no place at work at FL310 in bad wx with 75 people strapped to your bottoms.
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It is a shame that this escalated to both losing their jobs. It is unnecessary when you think that there are so many resources available for them to settle this before it gets out of hand.
Pro standards is perhaps a concept that should be adopted outside of the US. At my airline we have people from every background imaginable. I have had F117 stealth fighter pilots to one fellow who had never flown a turbine aircraft before he flew with me on the 757. He had about 15 thousand hours in the DC3 and was a great stick. If someone acts like a ******** it is not if they are ex military or civilian or whatever. That was their personality to begin with and it will take outside intervention by someone they will respect to effect change. That is where pro standards come in. It is peer to peer counseling and you only pick guys that have a high reputation to be on that committee.
We also have a no fly list. If there is someone you cannot stand then you can designate that person to be on your no fly list. You will not be paired with that person if you are a reserve or you will not be assigned with them during the monthly bid process. We bid using a preferential bidding program (PBS) and the program looks at the no fly preferences as part of the bidding process. No one outside of pro standards and the chief pilots office knows who is or is not on a list. Most of us have never used it. The F/Os use more than the captains so they don't have to put up with the few idiot captains we have. That has save a lot of problems in the past. It is actually good for the company because you have no cancellations due to someone bailing off the trip because they cannot get along with the other guy. The system has worked well for us for a long time.
Pro standards is perhaps a concept that should be adopted outside of the US. At my airline we have people from every background imaginable. I have had F117 stealth fighter pilots to one fellow who had never flown a turbine aircraft before he flew with me on the 757. He had about 15 thousand hours in the DC3 and was a great stick. If someone acts like a ******** it is not if they are ex military or civilian or whatever. That was their personality to begin with and it will take outside intervention by someone they will respect to effect change. That is where pro standards come in. It is peer to peer counseling and you only pick guys that have a high reputation to be on that committee.
We also have a no fly list. If there is someone you cannot stand then you can designate that person to be on your no fly list. You will not be paired with that person if you are a reserve or you will not be assigned with them during the monthly bid process. We bid using a preferential bidding program (PBS) and the program looks at the no fly preferences as part of the bidding process. No one outside of pro standards and the chief pilots office knows who is or is not on a list. Most of us have never used it. The F/Os use more than the captains so they don't have to put up with the few idiot captains we have. That has save a lot of problems in the past. It is actually good for the company because you have no cancellations due to someone bailing off the trip because they cannot get along with the other guy. The system has worked well for us for a long time.
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Ok so a lot of people have had a say, and in my opinion been very unprofessional by slating two fellow pilots (not including ex mil/corp pilots) that they have never even met! These near two hundred posts are based on a newspaper article that's facts are based around the captain having 1100 flight hours! I can state for fact that is way below the companies requirements.
The only statement I spotted that made any factual reading was the comment "you find buffoons in all walks of life!"
I hope if any of you sky gods ever find yourself in a sticky situation, you all deal with it perfectly, and hundreds of posts on prune about how fabulous you are appears this thread.
The only statement I spotted that made any factual reading was the comment "you find buffoons in all walks of life!"
I hope if any of you sky gods ever find yourself in a sticky situation, you all deal with it perfectly, and hundreds of posts on prune about how fabulous you are appears this thread.