Flybe pilots fired after flight deck row
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ei-flyer
"the captain makes a joke that 99.9% of the human species understand is a joke" and therein lies the problem: accounting for the 0.1% that don't find it funny - which is their right. A more 'mature' crew member may not appreciate or even understand the nuances of modern vernacular which might, indeed, cause offence.
From previous posts on this matter, it would appear that both parties had 'form' and, as the buck does stop in the left-hand seat, I'd suggest that judgement and tact were not being appropriately displayed by the captain.
"the captain makes a joke that 99.9% of the human species understand is a joke" and therein lies the problem: accounting for the 0.1% that don't find it funny - which is their right. A more 'mature' crew member may not appreciate or even understand the nuances of modern vernacular which might, indeed, cause offence.
From previous posts on this matter, it would appear that both parties had 'form' and, as the buck does stop in the left-hand seat, I'd suggest that judgement and tact were not being appropriately displayed by the captain.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flow Wedge, careful, you will drive Meerkat into an uncontrolled frenzy . You are, of course, completely correct. 40&80 attempted to congratulate all on a reasonable debate but was, sarcastically, slammed by Millersourt. Catplaystation, as always, excellent post. Judge 11, good pseudonym, balanced reasonable judgement. Meerkat loves to have the last word & enjoys bringing down the debate quality by swingeing personal attacks. Very sad and a bit of a worry. I am definitely on side with Landflap here, along with Rabski and others who understand the fearsome responsibilty given to Commanders. No need to have a sarcastic swipe at these guys.
Back on thread, the bmi incident showed a flare up, exacerbated by the Captain. Safety was compromised & the Capt should have acted firmly to calm things down rather than further create a potentially dangerous atmosphere. I do not like dismissal though. Severe disciplinary action on both should suffice unless they both have a record of this sort of behavior.
Back on thread, the bmi incident showed a flare up, exacerbated by the Captain. Safety was compromised & the Capt should have acted firmly to calm things down rather than further create a potentially dangerous atmosphere. I do not like dismissal though. Severe disciplinary action on both should suffice unless they both have a record of this sort of behavior.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Judge 11
Your previous post responding to Private Jets was just as bad as his....
Flow wedge's despite being tongue in cheek was crap also..."I have displayed, I have cenotaphed" ......you sounded like a tosser... sorry, just cant miss an opportunity to tell everybody how great you are even when you're trying to be funny you probably make civvy pilots eyes roll in company and you never know
And I fly a private jet.
Heres me thinking it was about getting the job done safely regardless of flying background....
Flybe is better off without them both, you can have banter and a laugh without calling somebody a bitch whilst maintaining safety standards, the FO should have respected the seat if not the bloke kept it in his trousers instead of waving it around
Some time ago I might have advocated that Flybe back up the Captain to the hilt, probably now things have moved on and he probably had to go....if nothing else for the morale of the FO's
Your previous post responding to Private Jets was just as bad as his....
Flow wedge's despite being tongue in cheek was crap also..."I have displayed, I have cenotaphed" ......you sounded like a tosser... sorry, just cant miss an opportunity to tell everybody how great you are even when you're trying to be funny you probably make civvy pilots eyes roll in company and you never know
And I fly a private jet.
Heres me thinking it was about getting the job done safely regardless of flying background....
Flybe is better off without them both, you can have banter and a laugh without calling somebody a bitch whilst maintaining safety standards, the FO should have respected the seat if not the bloke kept it in his trousers instead of waving it around
Some time ago I might have advocated that Flybe back up the Captain to the hilt, probably now things have moved on and he probably had to go....if nothing else for the morale of the FO's
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Swinton
Age: 35
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear. Hook, line and sinker.......
if only you knew the whole truth......
I love it when their eyes roll.....
at least they've listened.
Any ways, this is a rumour network, isnt it. I've also been to the moon.
Let me remind everyone. it's about a personal attitude that, played correctly, can overcome the most onerous of situations. It requires non-willy(fanny) waving nous to best mitigate, on both sides of the console.
Sounds like both were equally culpable.
Shame really, coz it ain't rocket science. (Which it most certainly was when I went to the moon).
if only you knew the whole truth...... I love it when their eyes roll..... at least they've listened.Any ways, this is a rumour network, isnt it. I've also been to the moon.
Let me remind everyone. it's about a personal attitude that, played correctly, can overcome the most onerous of situations. It requires non-willy(fanny) waving nous to best mitigate, on both sides of the console.
Sounds like both were equally culpable.
Shame really, coz it ain't rocket science. (Which it most certainly was when I went to the moon).
Last edited by Flow Wedge; 28th Apr 2012 at 13:50.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: England
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Private Jet.
I am a Sky God who excretes odourless faeces. I have medals, and have cenotaphed. I have bombed, recce'd, and displayed. I now drive a 'bus using my left hand. I have reached my Heavenly status by my own self-aware based study and by communicating with all those that I have ever encountered whilst aviating. By communicating I mean asking open questions and then, perhaps crucially, LISTENING to the response. My Sky God status has been garnered through understanding that admitting mistakes is as important as proving, through sheer natural ability, Sky Godliness.
I am a Sky God who excretes odourless faeces. I have medals, and have cenotaphed. I have bombed, recce'd, and displayed. I now drive a 'bus using my left hand. I have reached my Heavenly status by my own self-aware based study and by communicating with all those that I have ever encountered whilst aviating. By communicating I mean asking open questions and then, perhaps crucially, LISTENING to the response. My Sky God status has been garnered through understanding that admitting mistakes is as important as proving, through sheer natural ability, Sky Godliness.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately Flow Wedge seems to be making exactly the same mistake as the Flybe captain. If you're going to do 'humour' it better be funny, otherwise you'll be considered a d1ckhead by everyone around you, to the detriment of the task in hand.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 28th Apr 2012 at 14:54.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah! It didn't take long for the purile comments to emerge.
G-Spot: my comments were based on fact; Private Jet's was mere conjecture and misconceived stereotyping.
The 'job' can be done equally well whether you have received flying training in the civilian sector or the military. The only difference is that, in my opinion, the ex military pilot brings with him/her a bucket-full of skills and experience that the civilian pilot cannot have access to. Of course, if those aren't channeled constructively and beneficially into the civilian sector (and it doesn't only apply to pilots but also to ex service personel entering the civilian job market) then it is wasted.
However, I would suggest, and experience tells me, that they bring much more to the table than the majority of civilians at the same datum of age/hours.
G-Spot: my comments were based on fact; Private Jet's was mere conjecture and misconceived stereotyping.
The 'job' can be done equally well whether you have received flying training in the civilian sector or the military. The only difference is that, in my opinion, the ex military pilot brings with him/her a bucket-full of skills and experience that the civilian pilot cannot have access to. Of course, if those aren't channeled constructively and beneficially into the civilian sector (and it doesn't only apply to pilots but also to ex service personel entering the civilian job market) then it is wasted.
However, I would suggest, and experience tells me, that they bring much more to the table than the majority of civilians at the same datum of age/hours.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suspect FlyBe are glad to be rid of both these chaps. Sadly the company lost an excellent pilot, captain, mentor and gentleman the other day through the dreaded big C. A couple of sectors with Pat G would undoubtedly have taught these guys far more about CRM than a few books and ten dozen pprune posts.
the ex military pilot brings with him/her a bucket-full of skills and experience that the civilian pilot cannot have access to.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Devon
Age: 76
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ho-hum., early in my flying career a wise old bird said to me, 'no matter how experienced you are and how good you or anyone else thinks you are, you are really only as good as your last landing.'
A Captain made a silly remark; perhaps he'd been watching an American crime movie the night before, or listening to Rap music on his car radio as he drove to work. Perhaps that cloud up ahead really didn't look so bad...clouds can be misleading. Perhaps the FO was a bit over-sensitive, and suffered from I-can-do-better-than-you complex, who knows? But the fact is, it could just as easily have been a moment's distraction, a misunderstood clearance, the wrong button pressed at the wrong time, or the right button not pressed at all. Flying is an uncertain business, and it is too easy to get into trouble even before you start having shouting matches on the Flight Deck.
On another day, with another pairing both these pilots were probably paragons of professionalism, or at least comfortably within the boundaries of what is acceptable. They just made a pig's ear of their relationship on that day, on that flight.
Perhaps the correct response to their misfortune is, there but for the grace of God...
Oh, and CRM is important. It is nothing more than common sense and applied psychology. I actually think it should be taught to we pilots by professional psychologists, not keen FO's ( no insult intended ) who do their best, but don't have the background. If you think that applied psychology is hokum, just ask yourself why it is that when you go into a Supermarket for a pint of milk, you inevitably come out with seven other items. The rest of the world has been applying psychology for years, by comparison in this business we are still tending to believe the world is flat.
A Captain made a silly remark; perhaps he'd been watching an American crime movie the night before, or listening to Rap music on his car radio as he drove to work. Perhaps that cloud up ahead really didn't look so bad...clouds can be misleading. Perhaps the FO was a bit over-sensitive, and suffered from I-can-do-better-than-you complex, who knows? But the fact is, it could just as easily have been a moment's distraction, a misunderstood clearance, the wrong button pressed at the wrong time, or the right button not pressed at all. Flying is an uncertain business, and it is too easy to get into trouble even before you start having shouting matches on the Flight Deck.
On another day, with another pairing both these pilots were probably paragons of professionalism, or at least comfortably within the boundaries of what is acceptable. They just made a pig's ear of their relationship on that day, on that flight.
Perhaps the correct response to their misfortune is, there but for the grace of God...
Oh, and CRM is important. It is nothing more than common sense and applied psychology. I actually think it should be taught to we pilots by professional psychologists, not keen FO's ( no insult intended ) who do their best, but don't have the background. If you think that applied psychology is hokum, just ask yourself why it is that when you go into a Supermarket for a pint of milk, you inevitably come out with seven other items. The rest of the world has been applying psychology for years, by comparison in this business we are still tending to believe the world is flat.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Judge
Your comment on purile posts beginning did make me chuckle....
I actually agree with your post and your sentiment but did you need to include?
that you could only dream of doing in you flight sim
and if some of that is carried over into the more touchy-feeely-don't upset anyone-civvy world then that is understandable
They have more in their little finger than you'll ever have at the front of your Citation.
If I need a q400 landing on a afghani dirt strip all you need is to post on here and wait 8 pages there'll no doubt be somebody along telling you how well qualified they are to do it. Problem is we're just trying to get the paying public to their holidays and back in a safe efficient manner. We all have our personal experiences of people civil and military some good and some bad.
You don't need to loiter long in the Mil forum long to see/hear the lord flashhard types competing with each other and I occasionally wince that these are the people that I'm currently sharing the skies with and it won't be long before I'm sat next to them..
On the other hand it took 6 years for an ex mil guy that I worked with to (when pushed) admit to doing some rotary flying out of Hereford.
I simply find the latter guy easier to have a lot of respect for.
Your comment on purile posts beginning did make me chuckle....
I actually agree with your post and your sentiment but did you need to include?
that you could only dream of doing in you flight sim
and if some of that is carried over into the more touchy-feeely-don't upset anyone-civvy world then that is understandable
They have more in their little finger than you'll ever have at the front of your Citation.
You don't need to loiter long in the Mil forum long to see/hear the lord flashhard types competing with each other and I occasionally wince that these are the people that I'm currently sharing the skies with and it won't be long before I'm sat next to them..
On the other hand it took 6 years for an ex mil guy that I worked with to (when pushed) admit to doing some rotary flying out of Hereford.
I simply find the latter guy easier to have a lot of respect for.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Devon
Age: 76
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Us and Them...Them and Us!
Over the years I have met all sorts of ex-military pilots and have found them to be as surprisingly diverse as non-military pilots, both in attitude and ability. I would say the cross section is very little different from that of civilian pilots.
As for experience in little fingers, it all depends what you have been doing in the past and its relevance to what you are doing now; I have known plenty of airline pilots, now plodding the skies, who have in previous lives landed little aeroplanes on dodgy bush airstrips in Africa, or on remote Canadian lakes. Wing and a prayer stuff with no radio aids and no back-up. So is that any more or less relevant to doing a night landing in a howling crosswind at Gatwick or Berlin, than is roaring around at 250 feet in a Tornado? Please don't answer, I couldn't bear it!
We're all the same chaps. I refer you to my previous posting...only as good as your last landing, wherever you come from.
Over the years I have met all sorts of ex-military pilots and have found them to be as surprisingly diverse as non-military pilots, both in attitude and ability. I would say the cross section is very little different from that of civilian pilots.
As for experience in little fingers, it all depends what you have been doing in the past and its relevance to what you are doing now; I have known plenty of airline pilots, now plodding the skies, who have in previous lives landed little aeroplanes on dodgy bush airstrips in Africa, or on remote Canadian lakes. Wing and a prayer stuff with no radio aids and no back-up. So is that any more or less relevant to doing a night landing in a howling crosswind at Gatwick or Berlin, than is roaring around at 250 feet in a Tornado? Please don't answer, I couldn't bear it!
We're all the same chaps. I refer you to my previous posting...only as good as your last landing, wherever you come from.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rugby
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBoyo
Perhaps the FO was a bit over-sensitive, and suffered from I-can-do-better-than-you complex, who knows?
In my own experience, as a manager of a service department (exhibitions) in an international company, my job was to make the other departments look good. I had to work with managers from all other departments in the company. Some of these were friends, others not so much, but whatever the personal relationship, I was judged on the look (and the success) of the stands. There was one manager with whom, for a variety of reasons, I did not "get on". The personal relationship, I hope was not reflected in my department's standard of work.
These two should have borne that in mind.
Last edited by Dawdler; 28th Apr 2012 at 20:49.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know, I donīt know either one of them and neither do most of the posters here. I have no idea who deserved what. But for this to have happened, at least one of them would have had to have an attitude and thus a reputation. Which means that somebody in charge didnīt do his/her job and nip this in the bud (meaning on the ground, a long time ago, back when such attitude/behavior was first noticed) before it ever got out of hand.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And of course, extending Boyo's logic, anyone who hasn't been binned by management has the right to act as they wish in the flight deck... 'Rights and responsibilities', anyone?
Extending the analogy: I fear that while Bigmouth may have caught the nail with a glancing blow, he's probably still nursing a bruised thumb or finger...
Either way, the two pilots concerned are a disgrace to the profession. Or what's left of it.
Extending the analogy: I fear that while Bigmouth may have caught the nail with a glancing blow, he's probably still nursing a bruised thumb or finger...
Either way, the two pilots concerned are a disgrace to the profession. Or what's left of it.