Flybe pilots fired after flight deck row
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You are right. . none, well, what is a bit of thread drift here & there . . . .all very CRM Capt/Crew related though, so not as irrelevant as we could make it with a bit more effort. 
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In simple terms it appears to me that this crew were not going anywhere apart from termination of their careers as the scenario unfolded.
The F/O appears to have an attitude problem and the captain also demonstrated
a juvenile approach to command. I suspect they had flown together previously.
Excellent example of two people who having worked hard to get where they were then pressed the self destruct button.
A lesson to others and worth mulling over
The F/O appears to have an attitude problem and the captain also demonstrated
a juvenile approach to command. I suspect they had flown together previously.
Excellent example of two people who having worked hard to get where they were then pressed the self destruct button.
A lesson to others and worth mulling over
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'General' Landflap - it is not really credible to say you don't get drawn by 'trolls' or get drawn into debate when a point has been misunderstood. That just adds to the picure of intolerance and intransigence you have already created, albeit possibly erroeously. If you are on this forum making some of the statements you have been among your fellow professionals, you cannot reasonably expect to then say there is no room for debate. Wonderful as it may be to run a cockpit where edicts are issued and no one questions your exceptional insights and judgements, you are not in that environment here.
Regarding being a 'troll' with 'an otherwise insignificant contribution', I will leave it to others to decide if that is the case. My observations are that CRM has been vital to the necessary culture change in our world, and I have wholeheartedly enbraced its value to aviation. Incidentally, the fact that Generals do not like to be questioned might go some way to explain why people like General Douglas Haig presided over 420,000 British casualties in the Battle of the Somme, including 60,000 on the first day. Perhaps a bit more questioning might have been quite helpful. The Generals of the Air, whose style CRM was brought-in to cramp, were for the first time challenged in their behaviour patterns - and they bitterly resented it. Very few people in our industry would question the fact that those who hate CRM so much are often the most difficult people to work with, and that those who need to learn the most from CRM are those who see least merit in it. You may be a great guy and your FOs all love you, but you sure do not come across as that here.
Regarding being a 'troll' with 'an otherwise insignificant contribution', I will leave it to others to decide if that is the case. My observations are that CRM has been vital to the necessary culture change in our world, and I have wholeheartedly enbraced its value to aviation. Incidentally, the fact that Generals do not like to be questioned might go some way to explain why people like General Douglas Haig presided over 420,000 British casualties in the Battle of the Somme, including 60,000 on the first day. Perhaps a bit more questioning might have been quite helpful. The Generals of the Air, whose style CRM was brought-in to cramp, were for the first time challenged in their behaviour patterns - and they bitterly resented it. Very few people in our industry would question the fact that those who hate CRM so much are often the most difficult people to work with, and that those who need to learn the most from CRM are those who see least merit in it. You may be a great guy and your FOs all love you, but you sure do not come across as that here.
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CAN CVR EVIDENCE BE USED IN COURT?
AirBubba, Captain Hook and BugSpeed made some interesting comments earlier in this thread about the admissability or otherwise of CVR evidence in the Employment Tribunal - the consensus being that it's not allowed unless it's an Accident Investigation which of course an Employment Tribunal isn't. .
There may be some doubt about thsi however. It appears that CVR or Flight Recorder evidence is NOT somehow "privileged" and unavailable to the courts.
In the Bird/Akers case the original CVR recording had been overwritten on the return flight but clearly the Tribunal had considered obtaining this evidence and would have done so had the recording been still extant. The fact is that an Employment Tribunal is a court of law which does have powers to subpoena evidence it regards as relevant.
Courts have won disclosure of the CVR voice recordings before - a recent example was the "Linatex v Kreitsky" Blackbushe case where the lawyers acting for insurers obtained a court order requiring the AAIB to disclose the contents of the cockpit voice recorder.
And of course no one can assume data will be automatically wiped over time . In Jersey an Employment Tribunal heard an appeal against the dismissal of a Flybe pilot who'd lost his job after carrying out a non-SOP take-off in a Dash8-Q400.
Apparently Flybe’s SOP say take off should be at a stable speed and use a 15 degree pitch............. However as this aircraft look off from BHM it was levelled at about 15 feet above the runway rising to 45 feet whilst accelerating to approximately 170 knots and was then pitched up to 27.5 degrees and climbed at over 7000ft per min to its assigned altitude of 6,000 feet. This included the aeroplane making a turn at a bank of 45 degrees. In fact the aircraft overshot the prescribed altitude and reached 6,420 feet, dropped to 5,700 feet, and was finally stabilised at 6,000 feet.
In the normal course of events the Flight Data from this aircraft would have been automatically sent wirelessly to a central server for review by the Flybe's Flight Data Manager. However in this case, for some reason, it wasn't.
It was perhaps bad luck for the captain that two months later when the same Dash 8 (being flown by someone else) was subsequently involved in an incident in Paris. This led to all the on-board data being reviewed - and lo and behold what came to light was the spectacular take-off from Birmingham two months earlier.
There may be some doubt about thsi however. It appears that CVR or Flight Recorder evidence is NOT somehow "privileged" and unavailable to the courts.
In the Bird/Akers case the original CVR recording had been overwritten on the return flight but clearly the Tribunal had considered obtaining this evidence and would have done so had the recording been still extant. The fact is that an Employment Tribunal is a court of law which does have powers to subpoena evidence it regards as relevant.
Courts have won disclosure of the CVR voice recordings before - a recent example was the "Linatex v Kreitsky" Blackbushe case where the lawyers acting for insurers obtained a court order requiring the AAIB to disclose the contents of the cockpit voice recorder.
And of course no one can assume data will be automatically wiped over time . In Jersey an Employment Tribunal heard an appeal against the dismissal of a Flybe pilot who'd lost his job after carrying out a non-SOP take-off in a Dash8-Q400.
Apparently Flybe’s SOP say take off should be at a stable speed and use a 15 degree pitch............. However as this aircraft look off from BHM it was levelled at about 15 feet above the runway rising to 45 feet whilst accelerating to approximately 170 knots and was then pitched up to 27.5 degrees and climbed at over 7000ft per min to its assigned altitude of 6,000 feet. This included the aeroplane making a turn at a bank of 45 degrees. In fact the aircraft overshot the prescribed altitude and reached 6,420 feet, dropped to 5,700 feet, and was finally stabilised at 6,000 feet.
In the normal course of events the Flight Data from this aircraft would have been automatically sent wirelessly to a central server for review by the Flybe's Flight Data Manager. However in this case, for some reason, it wasn't.
It was perhaps bad luck for the captain that two months later when the same Dash 8 (being flown by someone else) was subsequently involved in an incident in Paris. This led to all the on-board data being reviewed - and lo and behold what came to light was the spectacular take-off from Birmingham two months earlier.
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Two big Ego's, and the cockpit wasnt big enough for both of them. A more humble approach, and recognition of ones own shortcomings is certainly healthy.
So arrogant , they each thought they could report each other and emerge whiter than white themselves.
My only concern: That when flying with a complete nut case, people become afraid to speak up. The case centres around whether Flybe took a balanced decidion to dismiss them both, based on this one incident, or whether they took into account evidence of both pilots previous conduct.
So arrogant , they each thought they could report each other and emerge whiter than white themselves.
My only concern: That when flying with a complete nut case, people become afraid to speak up. The case centres around whether Flybe took a balanced decidion to dismiss them both, based on this one incident, or whether they took into account evidence of both pilots previous conduct.
Union Professional Standards Committee ?
Any dispute between cockpit crew can be taken directly to Pro Standards, or may be referred to them by the Chief Pilots Office. The role of Pro Standards is to mediate and in some cases educate pilots in cases like this. It might have turned a pissing match between two pilots into a 'learning experience', rather than the end of their careers.
Any dispute between cockpit crew can be taken directly to Pro Standards, or may be referred to them by the Chief Pilots Office. The role of Pro Standards is to mediate and in some cases educate pilots in cases like this. It might have turned a pissing match between two pilots into a 'learning experience', rather than the end of their careers.
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Shocking to hear that the both pilots behaved unprofessionally continued to argue and unfortunately this is not new.
In my opinion Flybe has done the right thing to terminate their employments as they clearly have neglected the safety of the passengers and putting their egos in front. If they have a point to prove, it should have been done at debriefing or taking up within the management, HR, etc.
Clearly team playing did not exist here, the Captain failed to show the leadership and take full responsibility
Thinking of this I feel terrfied especially anything knowing can go on in the cockpit.
Both should not appeal and be allowed to work as aircrew as they pose a threat to the flight and passengers safety.
Shocking!
In my opinion Flybe has done the right thing to terminate their employments as they clearly have neglected the safety of the passengers and putting their egos in front. If they have a point to prove, it should have been done at debriefing or taking up within the management, HR, etc.
Clearly team playing did not exist here, the Captain failed to show the leadership and take full responsibility
Thinking of this I feel terrfied especially anything knowing can go on in the cockpit.
Both should not appeal and be allowed to work as aircrew as they pose a threat to the flight and passengers safety.
Shocking!
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Any dispute between cockpit crew can be taken directly to Pro Standards, or may be referred to them by the Chief Pilots Office. The role of Pro Standards is to mediate and in some cases educate pilots in cases like this. It might have turned a pissing match between two pilots into a 'learning experience', rather than the end of their careers.
This may be true in the US but I have not read of it in the UK.
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Sorry to be "devisive" (if that is a word ? ) but this is a UK thing, & (avoiding the flack-maybe) a "thing" that will particularly affect those of a certain age, and even more so if one, or more, of them worked for the Queen.
Thanks for platitudes from the West side of the pond, but really, they won't listen
Thanks for platitudes from the West side of the pond, but really, they won't listen
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Now, obviously final approach is not the time to explain this - but I suspect that if this position is explained at the briefing or during pre-flight it'd go a long way to fostering a good working relationship. If you develop a reputation for doing this then the explanation may not even be necessary over time. Being brusque, irritable or salty with language doesn't necessarily make one a bad manager, and - at the other end of the scale - neither does being a "cold fish", as long as expectations have been set.
Bad managers can run the gamut from being openly hostile towards their subordinates to simply overruling or ignoring them - but the key factor is neither setting expectations nor being willing to provide an explanation of why at the appropriate time.
A bad manager in an office environment can make things difficult and eventually untenable - a bad manager in the flight deck can be lethal.
Oh BTW, I am only a cantankerous old sod when someone takes the p1ss, I do usually try (& hopefully succeed) in keeping that in reserve for when it is needed ,as a last resort.
is necessary, you offer an explanation as to why it was necessary), then you're a good manager.For what it's worth, I've encountered good managers who at one time or another had to be incredibly hard on me (one even put me on a disciplinary) - but because they offered to explain the situation at the appropriate time I didn't resent them for it. Likewise I've had bad managers who tried to be my mate when things were OK but turned into martinets and tyrants when the fit looked like it was going to hit the shan. A couple then tried to be my mate again when things had calmed down and seemed put out that I remained professionally detached from then on.
I've passed a lot of water since then, but I think the key issues are communication and trust. Communication I've tried to explain above - trust on the other hand is more complex and I don't think I could scratch the surface, but I do believe that trust begins with effective communication. Ultimately a captain can chew an F/O out to within an inch of his or her life, but if our hypothetical F/O is aware that this will only happen if absolutely necessary - and that they're entitled to an explanation of why it was necessary once on the ground (maybe even in the bar), then the chances are they'll be more inclined to put their trust in their skipper and think about what they could potentially learn as opposed to thinking "Right, you
...".Naturally there are extreme examples where this wouldn't have made a difference (KLM4805 and BEA548 spring to mind), but therein lies the cautionary tale for captains in command - namely that you'd better be pretty d*mned sure you're right.
A lot of flightdeck "upsets" these days are down to the mix of civilian/ex military. For some reason, military aviators have been indoctrinated with the dogma that their sh1t does not smell and that they are sky gods. Perhaps it would be best if they remained as career military pilots, got some more medals and marched back and forth past the cenotaph a few more times. Funny how civvy flying has such "low standards", but they can't wait to get into it??
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I'm sorry Private Jet but that is a grossly unfair comment on the majority of ex forces personnel flying in the civvy world. In my experience the modern day ex mil pilot is a pleasure to fly with and, without exception, an excellent operator. Not only from the stick and rudder perspective but also from the technical side as well. As a group I find that they are more self critical than most and are open to constructive crtiticism as that is the way they were trained. Things were a little different 25 years ago, there were one or two bad apples who made a simple day out a bit of a chore but by and large they have now retired and moved on. You may not remember the old Atlantic Barons, vastly experienced pilots but just as much a pain as the bad mil guys. Thankfully now that CRM is required reading the message is being absorbed before most people go near a sim or flight deck and has therefore had a positive impact, but as in all walks of life one or two may just get through.
Nobody is perfect but both sides can learn a lot from each other and with the gov seemingly trying to shrink mil aviation to it's bare minimum there will be a lot more ex mil guys coming to a seat near you soon. Some will have wanted to stay in longer and some will have done their time but at the end of the day I will welcome their skillsets just as much as I would any civvy pilot.
Oh and I've never flown anything more military than a 747 on a trooping contract so no bias.
Nobody is perfect but both sides can learn a lot from each other and with the gov seemingly trying to shrink mil aviation to it's bare minimum there will be a lot more ex mil guys coming to a seat near you soon. Some will have wanted to stay in longer and some will have done their time but at the end of the day I will welcome their skillsets just as much as I would any civvy pilot.
Oh and I've never flown anything more military than a 747 on a trooping contract so no bias.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm struggling to understand why the F/O is coming in for so much flack here. OK, by some accounts he might allegedly be a 'difficult type', but that doesn't alter some important points:
1. It seems the whole mood of the flight was set by the captain calling the F/O his bitch before they even started engines. Now this is not clever, not in anybody's book, under any circumstances. Unless you know someone really well, and are on VERY best terms, with a somewhat childish 'school playground' level of 'humour', you must be prepared to pay a high price for such a stupid remark. He did.
2. It appears the captain chose to ignore the F/O's suggestion to avoid a cell which he later apparently admitted was worse than he expected. By doing so, he put everyone at unnecessary risk, including the F/O, who clearly didn't want to be subjected to the avoidable weather any more than the captain's insulting, juvenile, patronising 'humour'.
Although it is reported that the F/O's subsequent behaviour was not ideal, after the captain set the scene with these two large errors of judgement, it is totally understandable. Anyone would feel aggreived after such disgraceful behaviour shown to them, behaviour completely unbecoming of a professional pilot, which has no place on a flightdeck.
Sadly there are too many of this captain's type, though now there is one less, and rightly so, with judgement that poor.
1. It seems the whole mood of the flight was set by the captain calling the F/O his bitch before they even started engines. Now this is not clever, not in anybody's book, under any circumstances. Unless you know someone really well, and are on VERY best terms, with a somewhat childish 'school playground' level of 'humour', you must be prepared to pay a high price for such a stupid remark. He did.
2. It appears the captain chose to ignore the F/O's suggestion to avoid a cell which he later apparently admitted was worse than he expected. By doing so, he put everyone at unnecessary risk, including the F/O, who clearly didn't want to be subjected to the avoidable weather any more than the captain's insulting, juvenile, patronising 'humour'.
Although it is reported that the F/O's subsequent behaviour was not ideal, after the captain set the scene with these two large errors of judgement, it is totally understandable. Anyone would feel aggreived after such disgraceful behaviour shown to them, behaviour completely unbecoming of a professional pilot, which has no place on a flightdeck.
Sadly there are too many of this captain's type, though now there is one less, and rightly so, with judgement that poor.
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Private jet; what utter and complete drivel!!
The military pilot has come through an exhaustive selection and training system and will have been exposed to flying operations that you could only dream of doing on your flight sim. They have been taught to plan, think and manage from day one and if some of that is carried over into the more touchy-feeely-don't upset anyone-civvy world then that is understandable. The nature of service life makes you flexible and, for the majority, assimilation into the civilain world is straightforward.
Military flying (even for the 'truckies') is a different ball game compared to the civil world and undoubtedly some mil pilots might need more time to adjust but never underestimate their ability or experience. They have more in their little finger than you'll ever have at the front of your Citation. That's not to say that your basic handling skills are any less good than a military pilot's but the 'world' in which they have been operating would, in the main, leave you standing.
And I'm not an ex military pilot.
The military pilot has come through an exhaustive selection and training system and will have been exposed to flying operations that you could only dream of doing on your flight sim. They have been taught to plan, think and manage from day one and if some of that is carried over into the more touchy-feeely-don't upset anyone-civvy world then that is understandable. The nature of service life makes you flexible and, for the majority, assimilation into the civilain world is straightforward.
Military flying (even for the 'truckies') is a different ball game compared to the civil world and undoubtedly some mil pilots might need more time to adjust but never underestimate their ability or experience. They have more in their little finger than you'll ever have at the front of your Citation. That's not to say that your basic handling skills are any less good than a military pilot's but the 'world' in which they have been operating would, in the main, leave you standing.
And I'm not an ex military pilot.
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pilotmike,
I wouldn't... No, I really, really wouldn't...
You need to lighten up my friend, it's this attitude to a bit of banter that causes these situations to flame up.
Let's look at it another way, the captain makes a joke that 99.9% of the human species understand is a joke, then the FO laughs it off and gets him back later. End of scenario. No shouting, no tantrums.
People take themselves way too seriously...
Anyone would feel aggreived after such disgraceful behaviour shown to them, behaviour completely unbecoming of a professional pilot, which has no place on a flightdeck.
You need to lighten up my friend, it's this attitude to a bit of banter that causes these situations to flame up.
Let's look at it another way, the captain makes a joke that 99.9% of the human species understand is a joke, then the FO laughs it off and gets him back later. End of scenario. No shouting, no tantrums.
People take themselves way too seriously...
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Private Jet.
I am a Sky God who excretes odourless faeces. I have medals, and have cenotaphed. I have bombed, recce'd, and displayed. I now drive a 'bus using my left hand. I have reached my Heavenly status by my own self-aware based study and by communicating with all those that I have ever encountered whilst aviating. By communicating I mean asking open questions and then, perhaps crucially, LISTENING to the response. My Sky God status has been garnered through understanding that admitting mistakes is as important as proving, through sheer natural ability, Sky Godliness.
I have reached my Heavenly status by understanding that effective CRM is the best way to mitigate the myriad variables that routinely catch out the blockheads. The moment the gradiant steepens the show becomes more open to compromise. It's about asking and LISTENING. There are some fantastic exponents of this simple process from all backgrounds. You're assertions demonstrate perfectly your pre-concieved ideas would be, in all probability, an effective barrier to the best of safe operations.
I am a Sky God who excretes odourless faeces. I have medals, and have cenotaphed. I have bombed, recce'd, and displayed. I now drive a 'bus using my left hand. I have reached my Heavenly status by my own self-aware based study and by communicating with all those that I have ever encountered whilst aviating. By communicating I mean asking open questions and then, perhaps crucially, LISTENING to the response. My Sky God status has been garnered through understanding that admitting mistakes is as important as proving, through sheer natural ability, Sky Godliness.
I have reached my Heavenly status by understanding that effective CRM is the best way to mitigate the myriad variables that routinely catch out the blockheads. The moment the gradiant steepens the show becomes more open to compromise. It's about asking and LISTENING. There are some fantastic exponents of this simple process from all backgrounds. You're assertions demonstrate perfectly your pre-concieved ideas would be, in all probability, an effective barrier to the best of safe operations.