Flybe pilots fired after flight deck row
fk: What do you think might have happened if either of them refused to fly the return leg
Capt and F/O then interviewed at base, and a slim chance that one or both of them may have kept their job.
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Alexander, your post 83 of 24 April contains a curious swipe at "people like you" when you don't know me and , clearly, have misuderstood my post. I suggest it is people like you who have embraced CRM as a means of voicing a otherwise insignificant contribution. I do not get drawn by trolls & dont get drawn into debate where a point has been misunderstood. Let me just reiterate. If & when the Regulatory Authorities hold everyone in the chain culpable, I will gladly adopt some of the weird CRM thinking that goes into the decision making process.Some of the less weird I already adopt & promote.Always did. At the present time, when operational, only the Captain will have to account, finally and conclusively.
It is possible that you have missed this point too. A quick illustration is that, recently, facing a real possibility of having to exercise discretion in order to complete a duty, a junior CA said to me that there was "no way" that he was going to exercise "his" discretion. Funny, thought it was mine ! Bought him a coffee & had a gentle discussion about who is, actually, finally, charged with responsibility & why "my" manual refers to "Captain's discretion".
Got it, Alex ? Safe flying. Six miles high & at eight miles a minute sometimes requires decisive commands and intent.
Have a go and take CRM into the Battlefields of the Mid East (currently) and a few Generals might not like being referred to as "People like you ".
It is possible that you have missed this point too. A quick illustration is that, recently, facing a real possibility of having to exercise discretion in order to complete a duty, a junior CA said to me that there was "no way" that he was going to exercise "his" discretion. Funny, thought it was mine ! Bought him a coffee & had a gentle discussion about who is, actually, finally, charged with responsibility & why "my" manual refers to "Captain's discretion".
Got it, Alex ? Safe flying. Six miles high & at eight miles a minute sometimes requires decisive commands and intent.
Have a go and take CRM into the Battlefields of the Mid East (currently) and a few Generals might not like being referred to as "People like you ".
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A quick illustration is that, recently, facing a real possibility of having to exercise discretion in order to complete a duty, a junior CA said to me that there was "no way" that he was going to exercise "his" discretion. Funny, thought it was mine ! Bought him a coffee & had a gentle discussion about who is, actually, finally, charged with responsibility & why "my" manual refers to "Captain's discretion".
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Discretion
In our company it is up to individual crew members as to whether or not they exercise discretion. EVERYONE has the right to say no, they don't HAVE to operate just because the captain says so. A captain who completely ignores his crew isn't a very good captain. Being the captain of an aircraft doesn't give you the right to play god - although some people seem to think it does...
Whilst I would agree that a good aircraft Commander will take into account the information from his crew about their fitness for duty in law there is only one person who can exercise discretion and that is the aircraft Commander.
Yes there is a requirement that he/she "consults" with crew members before reaching such a decision but, in my opinion, if he/she consults with his crew and they say "we're all too tired to continue" he is still legally entitled to say "Well I am exercising my discretion, we are going to continue the duty to XYZ etc" because he/she had consulted with the crew.
As a crew member you can say "I am not fit for duty and am therefore standing down as crew" but legally you cannot say "I am not exercising my discretion" because only the aircraft Commander can do that.
Yes there is a requirement that he/she "consults" with crew members before reaching such a decision but, in my opinion, if he/she consults with his crew and they say "we're all too tired to continue" he is still legally entitled to say "Well I am exercising my discretion, we are going to continue the duty to XYZ etc" because he/she had consulted with the crew.
As a crew member you can say "I am not fit for duty and am therefore standing down as crew" but legally you cannot say "I am not exercising my discretion" because only the aircraft Commander can do that.
Yes, yes, we all know you have stripes up and down your arm and have the power of God ... yawn, yawn. But, YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. Are you suggesting that as a Captain it would be a good call to 'tell' 'your' crew that 'you' are going into discretion whether they like it or not. Are you suggesting that crew members should blindly follow the Captain's instructions 100% of the time.
Yes, of course, I agree totally that the Commander should take into account the views of fellow crew members but that does not change the fact that, legally speaking, it is only the Commander who can exercise discretion whether other crew members agree with that decision or not - as I stated before they are quite entitled to report to the Commander that they are unfit for duty.
In the case which you listed, DDee737, from what you say the Commander did not consult with his crew which is in breach of the regulation. But of course, legally speaking, he can consult with the crew and still decide to exercise discretion.
Last edited by fireflybob; 25th Apr 2012 at 16:24.
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Guys, guys, the real question here is:
Can the Captain FORCE/INSTRUCT/TELL/COMMAND another crew member to go into discretion???
I have read and re-read our OPS MANUAL this afternoon and I'm still not totally sure of the answer. I think LEGALLY the answer is YES, but PRACTICALLY (and sensibly) the answer is NO. This is only how I interpret the document.
It is true that discretion can only be exercised with the Captain's permission.
I know someone who works in the FTL department at the CAA so I'll check with them and post back. It is an interesting question and I would like a solid answer.
Can the Captain FORCE/INSTRUCT/TELL/COMMAND another crew member to go into discretion???
I have read and re-read our OPS MANUAL this afternoon and I'm still not totally sure of the answer. I think LEGALLY the answer is YES, but PRACTICALLY (and sensibly) the answer is NO. This is only how I interpret the document.
It is true that discretion can only be exercised with the Captain's permission.
I know someone who works in the FTL department at the CAA so I'll check with them and post back. It is an interesting question and I would like a solid answer.
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Legally the answer is yes. Though you may have to justify it. Extracting crew from a rich target shopping environment,or a beach destination,will excercise all your CRM skills!
Interesting question indeed... I have just consulted my OM-A with regards to this. While it says that the extension of the duty periods must be "acceptable to the commander after consultation with all other crew members" and therefore lays the responsibility and the decision at the commanders feet, it also says in the section "Crew Health Precautions" as follows: "A crew member shall not perform duties on an aeroplane if he is not able to fulfill applicable medical requirements, is in any doubt of being able to accomplish his assigned duties, if he knows or suspects that he is suffering from fatigue or feels unfit to the extent that the flight may be endangered".
So while the final decision on go or no go is the commanders, it seems that every other crew member coming along for the flight in violation of above mentioned paragraph is violating OM-A rules himself and on his own account.
This leads me to the conclusion that factually, a NO GO can be decided by every legally required crew member while a GO can only be declared by the commander in case of no NO GO has come up. Sure, this might have to be explained without tea or biscuits present lateron, but the OM-A seems clear on this.
So while the final decision on go or no go is the commanders, it seems that every other crew member coming along for the flight in violation of above mentioned paragraph is violating OM-A rules himself and on his own account.
This leads me to the conclusion that factually, a NO GO can be decided by every legally required crew member while a GO can only be declared by the commander in case of no NO GO has come up. Sure, this might have to be explained without tea or biscuits present lateron, but the OM-A seems clear on this.
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Tu144,
I think you've hit the nail on the head especially with your last paragraph.
I have to say that having read through most of the posts on this topic, how disappointed I am that there are still some pilots who won't embrace CRM and, even worse rubbish it. In my experience these people are the ones who need it the most - it is because of this now tiny minority that I have to attend a CRM course every year.
I think you've hit the nail on the head especially with your last paragraph.
I have to say that having read through most of the posts on this topic, how disappointed I am that there are still some pilots who won't embrace CRM and, even worse rubbish it. In my experience these people are the ones who need it the most - it is because of this now tiny minority that I have to attend a CRM course every year.
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In this case it is reasonable to persuade/encourage compliance. Or indeed command!
But, we digress.
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Yes there is. Find out it if they really are fatigued!
Or do you just take them at face value?!
Simply explaining the process that they will have to go through if they are officially fatigued has a better effect than a double espresso!
Or do you just take them at face value?!
Simply explaining the process that they will have to go through if they are officially fatigued has a better effect than a double espresso!
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DDee737 expounds:
And then lectures captains on their CRM skills.
Yes, yes, we all know you have stripes up and down your arm and have the power of God ... yawn, yawn
Lord Spandex Masher,
You have piqued my curiosity. In my company, calling in unfit to fly requires a written explanation to the respective fleet chief / head of cabin operation - no less, but no more either. And such an explanation will satisfy everyone involved, if credible, so there will be no hurt feelings on any side. This is what Standby duties are for, amongst others.
So I cannot help but wondering: What presumably horrifying prospects do F/As face in Your company under the same predicament?
You have piqued my curiosity. In my company, calling in unfit to fly requires a written explanation to the respective fleet chief / head of cabin operation - no less, but no more either. And such an explanation will satisfy everyone involved, if credible, so there will be no hurt feelings on any side. This is what Standby duties are for, amongst others.
So I cannot help but wondering: What presumably horrifying prospects do F/As face in Your company under the same predicament?
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114, I'm talking about a case of becoming "fatigued" after one or two sectors.
In which case they'll be offloaded and grounded immediately until an investigation of the ASR (they or the captain must file one for fatigue) has been completed.
They will also be probed (for want of a better word) about why they have become fatigued after a couple of sectors. After all they weren't fatigued when they reported or they wouldn't have reported, would they?!
Explaining that usually results in a "well I'm not actually THAT tired".
In which case they'll be offloaded and grounded immediately until an investigation of the ASR (they or the captain must file one for fatigue) has been completed.
They will also be probed (for want of a better word) about why they have become fatigued after a couple of sectors. After all they weren't fatigued when they reported or they wouldn't have reported, would they?!
Explaining that usually results in a "well I'm not actually THAT tired".
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There can sometimes be a middle path. I once had a flight that experienced delays which would mean exercising discretion to fly the sector back to base. My FO was chirpy (his sector) but the Chief Purser told me that one of the junior girls was mildly unwell and unfit to operate. The rest of the crew were all fine. No problem. With 14 CC (happy days of yore) we had enough crew to operate legally up to several juniors light, after all, we were a top airline with full service. The unfit CC deadheaded back and everybody was happy.
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The effects, and consequences, for the operation, and you, depend on the operation/company concerned.
Short-haul Lo Co Europe (yep, blue & yellow) I always tried to do it (consult), however, I knew the bullsh1t associated with an unscheduled nightstop, and found that even more tiring than just doing 1 more sector to get home (no transport booked, no transport paid for, no hotel booked, no hotel paid for, no nightstop kit/shirt- my fault of course- etc etc) However, I always asked, is everyone OK with this ? & added, if not, feel free to speak to Ops & explain your situation, however, that is YOUR decision, & I advise you ,just be aware of who you work for,& how well they will take this news.
Not undue pressure/influence, but some more "junior" crewmembers were (for their own sakes, not mine , I didn't really care) better offered an honest assessment of their future career prospects with their current employer, before they got too carried away.
I doubt if Air 0'Leary was in the minority in NOT wishing to hear news like this.
Lets be honest here guys, unless you are seriously out of it, is it really worth the hassle ? & if you REALLY are, you are too tired to care, so you will live with it.
Maybe it is way, way, different in Big Airways/Lufthansa/wherever, but most of us poor sods living/operating in the "real world" will, rightly or wrongly, try to keep the show on the road, influenced in no small way by the anticipated grief of the "unscheduled night-stop arrangements" & the (lightly concealed) repercussions, Crewing can be REALLY awful in some companies.
Get real.
Short-haul Lo Co Europe (yep, blue & yellow) I always tried to do it (consult), however, I knew the bullsh1t associated with an unscheduled nightstop, and found that even more tiring than just doing 1 more sector to get home (no transport booked, no transport paid for, no hotel booked, no hotel paid for, no nightstop kit/shirt- my fault of course- etc etc) However, I always asked, is everyone OK with this ? & added, if not, feel free to speak to Ops & explain your situation, however, that is YOUR decision, & I advise you ,just be aware of who you work for,& how well they will take this news.
Not undue pressure/influence, but some more "junior" crewmembers were (for their own sakes, not mine , I didn't really care) better offered an honest assessment of their future career prospects with their current employer, before they got too carried away.
I doubt if Air 0'Leary was in the minority in NOT wishing to hear news like this.
Lets be honest here guys, unless you are seriously out of it, is it really worth the hassle ? & if you REALLY are, you are too tired to care, so you will live with it.
Maybe it is way, way, different in Big Airways/Lufthansa/wherever, but most of us poor sods living/operating in the "real world" will, rightly or wrongly, try to keep the show on the road, influenced in no small way by the anticipated grief of the "unscheduled night-stop arrangements"
& the (lightly concealed) repercussions, Crewing can be REALLY awful in some companies.Get real.