A breath of fresh air at last. One pilots view of CRM
I can see your argument Armchairflyer, but:
All of that is immediately visible to the Captain when he enters the cockpit and all would have known that.
I accept that a brief to him may have been appropriate, but he had visibility of that and the ability to ask questions. Imperfect CRM let us say. But again, lousy situational awareness.
G
At 02:11:42Z the captain entered the cockpit, just before the stall warning stops, the airplane was at 35800 feet MSL, 9100 feet/min sink rate, airspeeds below 100 KIAS, pitch 12 degrees nose up and engines at 102% N1. Neither first officer provides an account to the captain what is happening.
I accept that a brief to him may have been appropriate, but he had visibility of that and the ability to ask questions. Imperfect CRM let us say. But again, lousy situational awareness.
G
Genghis, et al; “Neither first officer provides an account” …. … “All of that is immediately visible to the Captain …”.
These issues, as you state, involve awareness, but this is not assured. We must take care not to make assumptions and suffer hindsight bias.
These awareness problems are similar to the descriptions in http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...ml#post7050481
In the instance of AF447 the discrepancy in awareness and reporting could involve;- not seeing, or seeing and not understanding, or understanding but assuming that the other person(s) have seen and/or have the same understanding. Alternatively the behaviour may be influenced by ‘fundamental surprise’ which involves many human factors issues as well as technical knowledge.
Can CRM assist in overcoming these problems, if so, how?
Are these aspects being taught?
These issues, as you state, involve awareness, but this is not assured. We must take care not to make assumptions and suffer hindsight bias.
These awareness problems are similar to the descriptions in http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...ml#post7050481
In the instance of AF447 the discrepancy in awareness and reporting could involve;- not seeing, or seeing and not understanding, or understanding but assuming that the other person(s) have seen and/or have the same understanding. Alternatively the behaviour may be influenced by ‘fundamental surprise’ which involves many human factors issues as well as technical knowledge.
Can CRM assist in overcoming these problems, if so, how?
Are these aspects being taught?
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I think that if the captain of AF447 had been able to see the control column, as in a conventional aircraft, he would have had an immediate picture of what was happening, brief or no brief, as it was a vital piece of information appears to have been missing.
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CRM is very important for a very small number of pilots but less necessary for the majority of pilots.
But, like it or not, CRM is as indispensable to airlines as today's plague of green, high-vis vests - insurance requirements without either of which, the costs of operation would be higher and the corporate image would suffer: "Any airline worth the name supplies staff with green vests. And has a CRM program."
With the exception of the purser, CC don't need training in CRM; they need training in "effective communication" because they may have something to say at an important time (eg. Kegworth as someone pointed out) however they have very little to "manage" - with the exception of the purser. Effective communication is an integral part of CRM however the CC tend to see their small exposure to CRM training as the sum total of the concept; hence a grumpy captain who, despite possessing exemplary information-gathering and decision-making skills, just isn't touchy-feely enough to make them coffee in the galley before boarding "...has bad CRM."
Parabellum, your crusty, old Qantas captains will, inevitably, be a relic of the past; the next generation, MPL or otherwise, will be brought up with CRM embedded in their heads and, given similar aeronautical experience to the Rat driver, will be better decision-makers for it.
Whilst I am often bored by CRM classes and whilst I believe it is an "industry" living off aviation (which is why they keep inventing new generations of it) and whilst deep down I think the lessons of the bad CRM events "don't apply to me...", I know I am a better decision-maker for my exposure to CRM after 20 years since my first lesson in it. I think it helps me recognise undesirable states of flight and cockpit dynamics also.
Some of it is useful.
Most of the time, yes. And as a result of certain occasions when those qualities weren't enough, CRM was "invented."
It may be of interest that some Fire Departments around the world are embracing CRM training as a way of enhancing the skills and knowledge already given to their crews and chiefs.
But, like it or not, CRM is as indispensable to airlines as today's plague of green, high-vis vests - insurance requirements without either of which, the costs of operation would be higher and the corporate image would suffer: "Any airline worth the name supplies staff with green vests. And has a CRM program."
With the exception of the purser, CC don't need training in CRM; they need training in "effective communication" because they may have something to say at an important time (eg. Kegworth as someone pointed out) however they have very little to "manage" - with the exception of the purser. Effective communication is an integral part of CRM however the CC tend to see their small exposure to CRM training as the sum total of the concept; hence a grumpy captain who, despite possessing exemplary information-gathering and decision-making skills, just isn't touchy-feely enough to make them coffee in the galley before boarding "...has bad CRM."
Parabellum, your crusty, old Qantas captains will, inevitably, be a relic of the past; the next generation, MPL or otherwise, will be brought up with CRM embedded in their heads and, given similar aeronautical experience to the Rat driver, will be better decision-makers for it.
Whilst I am often bored by CRM classes and whilst I believe it is an "industry" living off aviation (which is why they keep inventing new generations of it) and whilst deep down I think the lessons of the bad CRM events "don't apply to me...", I know I am a better decision-maker for my exposure to CRM after 20 years since my first lesson in it. I think it helps me recognise undesirable states of flight and cockpit dynamics also.
Some of it is useful.
in the seventy years before .........CRM....... intelligence and airmanship seemed to work.
It may be of interest that some Fire Departments around the world are embracing CRM training as a way of enhancing the skills and knowledge already given to their crews and chiefs.
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Hmmmm,
My first CRM lesson came at the age of 18 shortly after I enlisted in the US Army. I had a disagreement with a Corpral about some minor point. I was sent to the First Sergeants office later that day to face my punishment. After reporting I was asked if I knew why I was in trouble...I mention I may have been out of line when I had a differeance of opinion with the Corpral. The First Sergeant gives me a long stair and finally says...." No. You told the man to go to hell and he didn't have a smile on his face." I thought that was the craziest thing I ever heard at 18 and as I painted everything not moving and cut more grass then I care to remember for the next 30 days.... those words stayed with me...and a year later I figured it out....now we call it CRM!!!
Today in my late 40's as a Captain on a corporate aircraft I still smile as I remeber my first CRM lesson in the Army...gotta love the simple and direct classes. I suspect some of our peers need a lesson in painting and cutting the grass but the magority of us get it....we play nice with the occasional "go to hell" slipped in...we are all just human.
My first CRM lesson came at the age of 18 shortly after I enlisted in the US Army. I had a disagreement with a Corpral about some minor point. I was sent to the First Sergeants office later that day to face my punishment. After reporting I was asked if I knew why I was in trouble...I mention I may have been out of line when I had a differeance of opinion with the Corpral. The First Sergeant gives me a long stair and finally says...." No. You told the man to go to hell and he didn't have a smile on his face." I thought that was the craziest thing I ever heard at 18 and as I painted everything not moving and cut more grass then I care to remember for the next 30 days.... those words stayed with me...and a year later I figured it out....now we call it CRM!!!
Today in my late 40's as a Captain on a corporate aircraft I still smile as I remeber my first CRM lesson in the Army...gotta love the simple and direct classes. I suspect some of our peers need a lesson in painting and cutting the grass but the magority of us get it....we play nice with the occasional "go to hell" slipped in...we are all just human.
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I'll stick my neck out a bit!
I don't agree that CRM has had its day. I do agree that CRM is organic and should adapt and change according to the changing environment it serves. There's bound to be some lag whilst we find a new direction.
I don't accept that CRM is boring and repetitive, I do agree that many CRMIs need to liven up their act somewhat. Some, a hell of a lot.
We should also bear in mind that our once yearly CRM sessions should be kicked off with the right attitude from attendees. Soul searching, (self) critical and, sure, let's do some moaning and whinging too. It's an opportunity to find out what's wrong and perhaps have a go at putting it right (contentious and idealistic, I know).
We all know that the philosophy behind CRM is to defend ourselves against our own physical and psychological limitations in the hope that we do actually fend off the odd nasty. A noble cause, I'm all behind it!
I don't agree that CRM has had its day. I do agree that CRM is organic and should adapt and change according to the changing environment it serves. There's bound to be some lag whilst we find a new direction.
I don't accept that CRM is boring and repetitive, I do agree that many CRMIs need to liven up their act somewhat. Some, a hell of a lot.
We should also bear in mind that our once yearly CRM sessions should be kicked off with the right attitude from attendees. Soul searching, (self) critical and, sure, let's do some moaning and whinging too. It's an opportunity to find out what's wrong and perhaps have a go at putting it right (contentious and idealistic, I know).
We all know that the philosophy behind CRM is to defend ourselves against our own physical and psychological limitations in the hope that we do actually fend off the odd nasty. A noble cause, I'm all behind it!
It sounds to me like many of the posters here receive terrible CRM training.
I look forward to my annual refresher because I normally learn something about how my brain works, what my weaknesses and bias´s are etc. I also normally get a pretty good example or case study that shows traps that other crews have fallen into.
Not one of my CRM refreshers over the last three years has been about group hugs and making descions as a team....... sounds like I´ve been lucky.
I look forward to my annual refresher because I normally learn something about how my brain works, what my weaknesses and bias´s are etc. I also normally get a pretty good example or case study that shows traps that other crews have fallen into.
Not one of my CRM refreshers over the last three years has been about group hugs and making descions as a team....... sounds like I´ve been lucky.
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Not one of my CRM refreshers over the last three years has been about group hugs
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How do you get a 200 hour pilot on probation, culled to be a buddy, pal, fit in, to question the captain? CRM.
Now that the FAA imposed 1500 hours for new hires...golly gee...I guess CRM is just so past it now.
I think back on all the arguments about this, and in the end, people pushing CRM were just the sort that wanted kids in the cockpit that could barely run the autopilot and believed whatever management told them about safety and what pilots should and shouldn't be. Gosh where are all the CRM advocates now?
Funny how everyone forgot the other reason for CRM...legends in their own mind captains flying into the side of a mountain, having their own FOs not believe the instruments infront of them and too damned scared about losing their jobs to say anything.
I guess the real winners are the CRM trainers who made a buck by pushing paper and showing presentations instead of flying planes. I'm curious what new safety crap they will come up with to make their house payments.
So when will airlines start hiring at the top of the resume pile, instead of the bottom of it?
Now that the FAA imposed 1500 hours for new hires...golly gee...I guess CRM is just so past it now.
I think back on all the arguments about this, and in the end, people pushing CRM were just the sort that wanted kids in the cockpit that could barely run the autopilot and believed whatever management told them about safety and what pilots should and shouldn't be. Gosh where are all the CRM advocates now?
Funny how everyone forgot the other reason for CRM...legends in their own mind captains flying into the side of a mountain, having their own FOs not believe the instruments infront of them and too damned scared about losing their jobs to say anything.
I guess the real winners are the CRM trainers who made a buck by pushing paper and showing presentations instead of flying planes. I'm curious what new safety crap they will come up with to make their house payments.
So when will airlines start hiring at the top of the resume pile, instead of the bottom of it?
If you think CRM is bad, have a look at the TEM syllabus in the Human Factors subject at CPL and ATPL level.
Problem is, young well meaning instructors are adopting the wording found in the text books with gusto. I once sat next to an instructor as he debriefed a student after a nav, 30 mins of multi syllable words. I had not the foggiest idea of what he was talking about. Poor student didnt understand a single word.
Problem is, young well meaning instructors are adopting the wording found in the text books with gusto. I once sat next to an instructor as he debriefed a student after a nav, 30 mins of multi syllable words. I had not the foggiest idea of what he was talking about. Poor student didnt understand a single word.
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So when will airlines start hiring at the top of the resume pile, instead of the bottom of it?
of business..along with an enforceable ICAO ban on low-cost
operations globally.
Pipe dream I know.
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I work for a "low cost" airline. Because it employs people with many first languages in about seven countries, it receives a high level of scrutiny from a regulatory authority. It was the first airline to introduce an ATQP programme - that is, a sim exercise which is an alternative to the formulaic OPC and line check which reveals almost nothing about anything.
I also had a sim evaluation with another big low cost airline. Although I have many issues with that airline, none of them relate to what I saw of the quality of training, although I accept this was limited.
The bottom line with CRM is that it hasn't completely changed the world. The human factor in flight safety is the biggest issue, and whereas other issues (technical, weather) were diminishing in their impact on flight safety, the human factor wasn't. However, there are plenty of airline pilots who still believe that their role is fundamentally flying aeroplanes, rather than managing a complex situation of which the aeroplane is only one component. The fact that, in a far less authoritarian society, the rest of the crew want to regard the captain as a team captain rather than a deity they regard as a nuisance, and something they aren't fundamentally competent to handle, retreating instead to their old stereotypes.
For myself, I enjoy the relationship that I have with crew on most days out. The crew rarely raise silly issues with me, but I know that if the working environment is relaxed and open, then if a matter for concern comes up, I am likely to be told about it rather than have the crew worrying about the drongo in the left hand seat. Accidents and incidents are uncommon these days, and the human factor may not be a large component. I hope that my attitude makes it less likely to be a component when the chips are down for me. I can't guarantee that, but it doesn't stop me from trying to implement on a formal basis what seems to be best practice.
I also had a sim evaluation with another big low cost airline. Although I have many issues with that airline, none of them relate to what I saw of the quality of training, although I accept this was limited.
The bottom line with CRM is that it hasn't completely changed the world. The human factor in flight safety is the biggest issue, and whereas other issues (technical, weather) were diminishing in their impact on flight safety, the human factor wasn't. However, there are plenty of airline pilots who still believe that their role is fundamentally flying aeroplanes, rather than managing a complex situation of which the aeroplane is only one component. The fact that, in a far less authoritarian society, the rest of the crew want to regard the captain as a team captain rather than a deity they regard as a nuisance, and something they aren't fundamentally competent to handle, retreating instead to their old stereotypes.
For myself, I enjoy the relationship that I have with crew on most days out. The crew rarely raise silly issues with me, but I know that if the working environment is relaxed and open, then if a matter for concern comes up, I am likely to be told about it rather than have the crew worrying about the drongo in the left hand seat. Accidents and incidents are uncommon these days, and the human factor may not be a large component. I hope that my attitude makes it less likely to be a component when the chips are down for me. I can't guarantee that, but it doesn't stop me from trying to implement on a formal basis what seems to be best practice.
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So if human factors is the big reason why CRM was implemented...why not put two ten thousand hour pilots in the cockpit? Certainly no high time FO is going to let the idiot in the left seat fly him into a mountain.
Oh, that's right...there is a pilot shortage....
Oh, that's right...there is a pilot shortage....
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why not put two ten thousand hour pilots in the cockpit?
the RHS. He'd been on the 320 squirter for two years as a FO.
That was a total of 24,000 hours in the cockpit.
..CRM comes naturally in that situation without all those rules
meant to accommodate the kids - we were too experienced to
let the other guy do something dumb while at the same time
too old to bullsh!t each other.
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Hours?
Slasher, im sure you are right in your instance about the 24000 hours on board, however in my 38 years (ive been flying jets for 33 years), ive been in many many situations where ive had very similar high hours in the FD and CRM issues have been a big problem for my airplane caused by the "experienced" trouble-maker in the other seat.A lot of this is caused by either ego problems over there, point scoring etc, or competition with me, and on many occasions just sheer incompetence.Ive seen it all.
Now im an instructor I tend to get better co-operation, but now and again the point-scoring issue crops up and im experienced enough to see this for what it is.
In reality CRM is really about covering each other and catching mistakes before they bite you (TEM).It is not a licence to be a ******** to the Captain.This, in my case anyway means a withdrawal of the "priviledge" of sectors from the other guy, they usually get the message and adjust their behaviour accordingly.
Its a cliche of course, but a FO being allowed to fly is a priviledge and not a right.I like the description of CRM from an older guy years ago as "ABC" (ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOUR in the COCKPIT) Pete.
Now im an instructor I tend to get better co-operation, but now and again the point-scoring issue crops up and im experienced enough to see this for what it is.
In reality CRM is really about covering each other and catching mistakes before they bite you (TEM).It is not a licence to be a ******** to the Captain.This, in my case anyway means a withdrawal of the "priviledge" of sectors from the other guy, they usually get the message and adjust their behaviour accordingly.
Its a cliche of course, but a FO being allowed to fly is a priviledge and not a right.I like the description of CRM from an older guy years ago as "ABC" (ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOUR in the COCKPIT) Pete.
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Point?
FATBOY.
Thats an interesting incident with a lot of lessons in it on how NOT to do things.Quite a few mistakes in communication there, and lucky there werent any serious injuries.However with respect to CRM etc, what is the point you are making apart from what appears to be a situation lacking in some respects with regard to SOPs and following FCTM procedures?......
Thats an interesting incident with a lot of lessons in it on how NOT to do things.Quite a few mistakes in communication there, and lucky there werent any serious injuries.However with respect to CRM etc, what is the point you are making apart from what appears to be a situation lacking in some respects with regard to SOPs and following FCTM procedures?......
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I've never had any problem with a highly experienced FO Mr
Pete. It starts in the crew room - I indicate how appreciative
I am that I have a real pilot to fly with for a change...iso of a
200hr wonderkid (a true sentiment!) and we are both gonna
have a highly enjoyable day today.
Basically I ensure that
he understands I anyway regard our power-distance as zero.
During the onboard predeparture briefing I emphasise, since
he was a captain himself, how much I'd value his input in any
emerg event, and in any case we look after each other's butt
and watch each other's six. This puts anyone at ease and I've
never experienced any point-scoring or one-upmanship as a
result.
Pete. It starts in the crew room - I indicate how appreciative
I am that I have a real pilot to fly with for a change...iso of a
200hr wonderkid (a true sentiment!) and we are both gonna
have a highly enjoyable day today.
Basically I ensure thathe understands I anyway regard our power-distance as zero.
During the onboard predeparture briefing I emphasise, since
he was a captain himself, how much I'd value his input in any
emerg event, and in any case we look after each other's butt
and watch each other's six. This puts anyone at ease and I've
never experienced any point-scoring or one-upmanship as a
result.
Last edited by Slasher; 13th May 2012 at 03:24.
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Well I have had to deal with attitude in the cockpit. I think much of it is the 'white scarf' mentality, or the 'mentor' mentality, or the 'I'm here, I must be good enough' mentality that more then a few pilots have. More then a few have something to prove in the cockpit and they don't have a problem pushing it either at the captain, at the FO, or at a cocaptain.
While a cockpit can be so toxic as to be a serious safety hazard...increases workload tremendously, changes focus and priority...this is really a problem for the people that have never really done anything in aviation...haven't really 'been there and done that'...more they just showed up...now feel they need to wax expert on the subject.
If a guy has some thing to prove in the cockpit...just turn off the auto pilot, give him one needed to navigate with..and say 'show me'...that ends the argument. Every sim instructor knows this, every pilot who's been flying pre A/P and GPS knows this....
While a cockpit can be so toxic as to be a serious safety hazard...increases workload tremendously, changes focus and priority...this is really a problem for the people that have never really done anything in aviation...haven't really 'been there and done that'...more they just showed up...now feel they need to wax expert on the subject.
If a guy has some thing to prove in the cockpit...just turn off the auto pilot, give him one needed to navigate with..and say 'show me'...that ends the argument. Every sim instructor knows this, every pilot who's been flying pre A/P and GPS knows this....
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Slasher/Piratepete;
While I've only once experienced problems with a high hour FO who thought he knew it all, (recent mil retiree of high mil rank, who didn't want to be line trained by some ****e civvy trained upstart, his actual words) I have found that the very experienced cockpit can land themselves in potential trouble due to being too comfortable with each other. Due to the way we work here captains can often fly together and in that case I now prefer to fly P2, that way I can behave as a co and keep a cockpit gradient in place. Its made slightly harder by the fact that I'm also management, but that can be overcome by some crew room banter before we start the day.
Tomorrow I'm off on a trip with a guy who has been a friend and colleague for 22 years, we trust each other implicitly, but he knows full well that when we report he'll have to sign for it on the grounds that if I f'*&# up as P2 its' all his fault as he signs the tech log.
Today I'm with a young guy with 700 hours, most of the sectors will be his as there is some good learning available, but its' my name in the book and my job if it goes wrong, he will get my normal crew room brief "If you think I'm wrong, shout out immediately as there may not be time later, but please don't be offended if I correct you." I've used that brief for years and never found a problem as a result.
While I've only once experienced problems with a high hour FO who thought he knew it all, (recent mil retiree of high mil rank, who didn't want to be line trained by some ****e civvy trained upstart, his actual words) I have found that the very experienced cockpit can land themselves in potential trouble due to being too comfortable with each other. Due to the way we work here captains can often fly together and in that case I now prefer to fly P2, that way I can behave as a co and keep a cockpit gradient in place. Its made slightly harder by the fact that I'm also management, but that can be overcome by some crew room banter before we start the day.
Tomorrow I'm off on a trip with a guy who has been a friend and colleague for 22 years, we trust each other implicitly, but he knows full well that when we report he'll have to sign for it on the grounds that if I f'*&# up as P2 its' all his fault as he signs the tech log.
Today I'm with a young guy with 700 hours, most of the sectors will be his as there is some good learning available, but its' my name in the book and my job if it goes wrong, he will get my normal crew room brief "If you think I'm wrong, shout out immediately as there may not be time later, but please don't be offended if I correct you." I've used that brief for years and never found a problem as a result.