Pilot Sentenced
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It looks like the captain had a vendetta against this chap, maybe he stole his chicK the previous night.
I do get vexed when I read the holier than thou reports.
There would not be a pilot in the world (except those that do not take alchohol at all for any reason) that has not been on a bender of some sorts and then had to go to work.
I have done it and had a real hard day, and when I was a captain, I had the odd co pilot who had been on the booze up to the legal 12 hour bottle to throttle rule and still reeked of booze.
My responce was dependant on the route to be flown etc,but it was usually TFN on this leg.
We will have a parley about this at the end of the day.
At this point I become very biblical.
HE WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE.
I do get vexed when I read the holier than thou reports.
There would not be a pilot in the world (except those that do not take alchohol at all for any reason) that has not been on a bender of some sorts and then had to go to work.
I have done it and had a real hard day, and when I was a captain, I had the odd co pilot who had been on the booze up to the legal 12 hour bottle to throttle rule and still reeked of booze.
My responce was dependant on the route to be flown etc,but it was usually TFN on this leg.
We will have a parley about this at the end of the day.
At this point I become very biblical.
HE WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE.
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I like a tipple and enjoy happy hour at the end of the day. Consuming alcohol (for now) is a legal and centuries old tradition. We of the libertine persuasion simply find ourselves in an age of puritanism, which rears its ugly head from time to time.
The rules are quite clear. You can drink to a point and then must stop if you are to perform your job, legally and safely. If you can't do that, you need to either seek help, reach deep down into your own resolve to get a grip, or let the flying profession go.
I submit that maybe 90% of the fun in life is built around alcohol, but so are 90% of the problems. If you like to drink, you always need to be mindful that you don't come to like to drink too much, and endeavor to keep a handle on it.
I like to drink, but I've never had to worry about getting a breath test because I have always strictly adhered to the alcohol rules, which is all I allow anyone to ask of me in that regard. It's also all I demand of the other pilot, but I do demand it.
The rules are quite clear. You can drink to a point and then must stop if you are to perform your job, legally and safely. If you can't do that, you need to either seek help, reach deep down into your own resolve to get a grip, or let the flying profession go.
I submit that maybe 90% of the fun in life is built around alcohol, but so are 90% of the problems. If you like to drink, you always need to be mindful that you don't come to like to drink too much, and endeavor to keep a handle on it.
I like to drink, but I've never had to worry about getting a breath test because I have always strictly adhered to the alcohol rules, which is all I allow anyone to ask of me in that regard. It's also all I demand of the other pilot, but I do demand it.
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The kicker is that if a occasional drinker goes on a binder and sucks down 20 drinks he would be absolutely useless the next day or in a coma. If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations. Doing 3 years in prison for being a social deviant who did no harm to anyone seems excessive.
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ALL research says grounded27 is incorrect
grounded27:
A recently published article in a professional health journal says:
"Our findings indicate that the motor component of information processing recovers during declining BACs, but it appears that the cognitive effects of the drug linger well after motor performance is back to drug-free levels," said Schweizer. The reduction in motor impairment as BACs decrease could create the illusion of complete sobriety and prompt the undertaking of activities requiring cognitive processes that are still greatly impaired....
The mismatch between motor and cognitive recovery … creates special hazards that may have implications for accident risks. A drinker who is about to drive a vehicle immediately after recovering from a drinking episode may be more dangerous than while actively drinking because they mistakenly assume they're okay."
The problem presented by your attitude “If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations.“ is the major problem that must be overcome to diminish the risk of alcohol induced transportation accidents.
The “experienced” drinker has only learned to hide his symptoms but every piece of research ever done shows that the motor and later the cognitive impairment is still present - long after the “experienced” drinker is positive he is 100% sober.
I am no prude and am a very “experienced” drinker who has been told more than once by their physician to lighten up on the alcohol. I do enjoy more than one drink and will always have more than one – EXCEPT – when I am driving my bus. It is then a minimum of 12 hours if I’ve had 2 drinks and 18 if I’ve had more.
That blood test at 6 AM signon might trip me up the night after some fun – my 2nd career is then over.
A recently published article in a professional health journal says:
"Our findings indicate that the motor component of information processing recovers during declining BACs, but it appears that the cognitive effects of the drug linger well after motor performance is back to drug-free levels," said Schweizer. The reduction in motor impairment as BACs decrease could create the illusion of complete sobriety and prompt the undertaking of activities requiring cognitive processes that are still greatly impaired....
The mismatch between motor and cognitive recovery … creates special hazards that may have implications for accident risks. A drinker who is about to drive a vehicle immediately after recovering from a drinking episode may be more dangerous than while actively drinking because they mistakenly assume they're okay."
The problem presented by your attitude “If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations.“ is the major problem that must be overcome to diminish the risk of alcohol induced transportation accidents.
The “experienced” drinker has only learned to hide his symptoms but every piece of research ever done shows that the motor and later the cognitive impairment is still present - long after the “experienced” drinker is positive he is 100% sober.
I am no prude and am a very “experienced” drinker who has been told more than once by their physician to lighten up on the alcohol. I do enjoy more than one drink and will always have more than one – EXCEPT – when I am driving my bus. It is then a minimum of 12 hours if I’ve had 2 drinks and 18 if I’ve had more.
That blood test at 6 AM signon might trip me up the night after some fun – my 2nd career is then over.
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Tacoma
You are sort of living proof to what I had been hinting at. Where do you think a doctor is going to find an expert drinker? Who will admit to their actual consumption? The liability of health insurance and keeping your job prevents most all heavy drinkers from asking for help if they can not quit. Most regulate in the business of aviation to their legal limit. Published medical journals are bias as our society even out of aviation will not give them a true platform of regular people to judge from! Like said above heavy drinkers calculate and manage their lives. It is only the idiots that are like the POI of the thread starter that bring light to the issue.
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Surely in this day and age, with all the technological advances in aircraft and the operation thereof, it's not too far fetched to impliment a system that stops the folks controlling these fantastic machines from being off their trolleys on fermented vegetable matter whilst in the cockpit ?
i.e. compulsory breath tests for every pilot before every flight.
It takes seconds to perform and would eradicate all risk of any pilot taking control whilst over the limit, and all the associated "tell or don't tell" moral wrangling.
There can be no justifiable argument against this.
i.e. compulsory breath tests for every pilot before every flight.
It takes seconds to perform and would eradicate all risk of any pilot taking control whilst over the limit, and all the associated "tell or don't tell" moral wrangling.
There can be no justifiable argument against this.
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Sure this would work. Perhaps we could start on politicians, doctors, lawyers, bankers, teachers, dentists, and every swinging d!ck on wall street.
No one is as regulated as airline pilots, pee tests at the gate, every six months at the medical, etc.
I for one don't think we need any more regulation, perhaps more personal responsibility.
No one is as regulated as airline pilots, pee tests at the gate, every six months at the medical, etc.
I for one don't think we need any more regulation, perhaps more personal responsibility.
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There can be no justifiable argument against this.
If alcohol requires such a solution, then surely fatigue should as well. After all, fatigue has been a contributing factor in a huge number of accidents. Alcohol has only been a factor in very few, I can only think of one (Aeroflot Nord 737-500 spiral in Northern Russia).
Oh, I forgot, we want to give the illusion of doing something as opposed to actually improving the situation.
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Why not BAC every pilot and cabin crewmember while reporting for work. It’s done in many countries and proves quite reliable. While at it why not the ground engineers too. Perhaps it may give those dependent to think twice before doing the old twelve ounce curl.
As for te F/O... he's probably better off not being in the cockpit. Not saying that jail tme willdo him any good.
I'm curious to know what took the skipper so long to realize the F/O was still three sheets to the wind? Shouldn't he share in some of the blame?
As for te F/O... he's probably better off not being in the cockpit. Not saying that jail tme willdo him any good.
I'm curious to know what took the skipper so long to realize the F/O was still three sheets to the wind? Shouldn't he share in some of the blame?
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Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading.
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Crews should self-police first and foremost.The next line of defense should be in-house with one free warning.Then the TSA.This never happened in the past because crews always took care of their own.But we werent politically correct way back then and there was no TSA.Just like the security issue for crews,its a sign of the times.
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A tricky one. I daresay many pilots, particularly those over 50, will have imbibed the odd potion or two within 8 hours of report. Nonetheless, the world has changed and no one can reasonably argue that they have not been warned of the consequences in this day and age. In years gone by men doing unspeakable things with men would have got a jail sentence. Today they can get 'married', you will be berated for doing 32mph in a 30 limit, nobody cares if you take drugs for 'recreational purposes' and drinking and flying is seen as a grievous crime. No doubt we all have our own views on each of these matters, but these are the rules that we have to work within. You cannot help but feel a sense of tragedy for the individual concerned, but he cannot say he did not know the deal. Also, in the Captain's defence, he did not come to work looking to shop someone. He was faced with a nightmare situation - he is damned if he does and damned if he does not. Not to report such an incident is a sackable offence and to report it makes him a pariah - an unenviable position indeed.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Rule is rules. When I did my military training, a lot of the older instructors were ex-WW2, and we were expected to "be in the bar until it closes, breakfast at 7, brief at 8, airborne at 9." Then it was an 8 hour rule, or generally 3 hours per pint (remembering that you are processing the early ones while still drinking the later ones). Then it became 12 hours. Once the random testing was introduced, I stopped drinking a minimum of 24 hours before duty, since the AME had told me traces sufficient to ground you can be detected up until then. It meant really only drinking on the first night of a two-day weekend, but that was the only way to stay clean. Thankfully I'm now retired and it doesn't affect me; the bummer is I'm on medication which prevents any alcohol being taken.
The breath test at the boarding gate wouldn't have stopped the bottle in the briefcase being taken into the toilet before top-of-descent ( and no, my lips are sealed and of course I have no proof) but I guess the TSA would now ensure that only 100 mls. of the stuff would be carried aboard anyway !
It is rumoured, and alleged, that a certain airline from a country known for its' fine wines allowed some of its' products as part of the crew meal ? ( we are talking Rumours as well as News, aren't we ? )
Bombay was a 'Dry State' but alcohol was rationed officially to registered alchoholics, and on a 5 day forced alcohol free slip, it was not occasionally unknown for crew members to register as such. Getting off the aircraft one day a crew were passed such a certificate with some beer allowance still remaining, which, the departing crew suggested, would alleviate their coming forced teetotal misery.
At the hotel they practised forging the applicants signature shown on the document, and him who best copied it was sent forthwith to the Customs store to purchase the remaining beer allowance,whereupon the Guardian of the Beer said .... funny, Captain XXXX left for Hong Kong this morning, now if you want some beer, just pay me an extra 5 rupees a bottle ( this was some years ago you understand ) and you can have what you want without the need for any certificate.
Problem solved.
It is rumoured, and alleged, that a certain airline from a country known for its' fine wines allowed some of its' products as part of the crew meal ? ( we are talking Rumours as well as News, aren't we ? )
Bombay was a 'Dry State' but alcohol was rationed officially to registered alchoholics, and on a 5 day forced alcohol free slip, it was not occasionally unknown for crew members to register as such. Getting off the aircraft one day a crew were passed such a certificate with some beer allowance still remaining, which, the departing crew suggested, would alleviate their coming forced teetotal misery.
At the hotel they practised forging the applicants signature shown on the document, and him who best copied it was sent forthwith to the Customs store to purchase the remaining beer allowance,whereupon the Guardian of the Beer said .... funny, Captain XXXX left for Hong Kong this morning, now if you want some beer, just pay me an extra 5 rupees a bottle ( this was some years ago you understand ) and you can have what you want without the need for any certificate.
Problem solved.
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ExSp33db1rd
Maybe you've seen this film ? If not you, and all the rest here should.
"The Pilot" with Clif Robertson (he flies his own Pits in the movie) They used an ONA DC8 with an ONA crew
Comments folks when you've watched it, or have already
"The Pilot" with Clif Robertson (he flies his own Pits in the movie) They used an ONA DC8 with an ONA crew
Comments folks when you've watched it, or have already
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G-HALE quotes
I’m not quite sure where you are going with your citation of Benjamin Franklin.
However, when one signs on the dotted line for employment with a carrier, that individual promises to follow the SOPs, contained within the company’s manual system which includes the Company Ops Manuals.
There are certain liberties are surrendered when one accepts the job… ranging from when must report to work to consumption of alcohol and drugs. Also, Company Operations Manuals at former and current carriers contain language concerning random BAC and drug testing.
At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?
""Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
Ben Franklin.
Ben Franklin.
However, when one signs on the dotted line for employment with a carrier, that individual promises to follow the SOPs, contained within the company’s manual system which includes the Company Ops Manuals.
There are certain liberties are surrendered when one accepts the job… ranging from when must report to work to consumption of alcohol and drugs. Also, Company Operations Manuals at former and current carriers contain language concerning random BAC and drug testing.
At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?
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captjns:
Virtually every worker in all fields agrees to conditions of employment. I am sure most, if not all airline employment agreements limit what you can say publicly about your airline, and so forth.
At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?
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To anengineer,
Yes there are technologies that can be implemented to stop any user (pilot, driver, machine operator) from using any item by means of a breath test.
In Europe much work has been done on hard wiring breath test machines in to cars, but they are all too flawed.
The technology cannot differentiate between alcohol on your breath from a "night before"' session, and the mouthwash you've just used.
An for the more lateral thinkers, you can always get someone else to blow in a tube. That is unless you want an officer with a special blow-into-my-bag testing all flight crew as they put their socks back on after going through the airport scanner.
Yes there are technologies that can be implemented to stop any user (pilot, driver, machine operator) from using any item by means of a breath test.
In Europe much work has been done on hard wiring breath test machines in to cars, but they are all too flawed.
The technology cannot differentiate between alcohol on your breath from a "night before"' session, and the mouthwash you've just used.
An for the more lateral thinkers, you can always get someone else to blow in a tube. That is unless you want an officer with a special blow-into-my-bag testing all flight crew as they put their socks back on after going through the airport scanner.