Pilot Sentenced
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Notice how the captain had to call his union rep, chief pilot, and HR person..CYA, right down the line..probably because he flew with the guy FIRST, THEN decided AFTER the flight to bust him...
Captain probably could have gotten in trouble for even doing the flight...so he was probably playing the game of only noticing the stinker 'enroute'.
Anyway...at your typical airline interview these days, it's a crapshoot if they want you to turn the capt in, or let it go, or call the chief pilot. Every outfit is different...some looking more for robots then others...
Captain probably could have gotten in trouble for even doing the flight...so he was probably playing the game of only noticing the stinker 'enroute'.
Anyway...at your typical airline interview these days, it's a crapshoot if they want you to turn the capt in, or let it go, or call the chief pilot. Every outfit is different...some looking more for robots then others...
Join Date: Jun 2010
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How can you smell an alcoholic bev after it's been consumed???
It usually takes on a different odor from my experience. Had his f/o flown another sector he'd probably been in the clear. 0.02/h down from .09
The Captain was after this poor dude's azz clearly. I've flown with some chaps in the past and asked them if they could read the check list - no worries.
It usually takes on a different odor from my experience. Had his f/o flown another sector he'd probably been in the clear. 0.02/h down from .09
The Captain was after this poor dude's azz clearly. I've flown with some chaps in the past and asked them if they could read the check list - no worries.
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Wow what an ugly subject to talk about. Fact is the high stress of the job ranks among others probably in the top 5. It is easy to go out and drink to much and blow a .04 after 8 hours of sleep (the convicted was twice that after the flight). No doubt there are uncounted un documented cases where in these modern times many professional pilots have exceeded these limits on duty. As had been stated this professional heavy drinker was viewed as as competent in his duty despite his BAC level. We do not do this!
What bothers me is that the observant captain did not order him to to not fly as smelling alcohol on his breath pre-flight. I also disagree with the ignorant Judaical system for his criminal sentence. Something along the line of license suspension and rehab would have been sufficient. It would be a black mark on his profession none the less. Alcoholism is a developed disease. It is rare for the inflicted to ask for help due to the repercussions , this is a cultural problem.
What bothers me is that the observant captain did not order him to to not fly as smelling alcohol on his breath pre-flight. I also disagree with the ignorant Judaical system for his criminal sentence. Something along the line of license suspension and rehab would have been sufficient. It would be a black mark on his profession none the less. Alcoholism is a developed disease. It is rare for the inflicted to ask for help due to the repercussions , this is a cultural problem.
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The Captain was after this poor dude's azz clearly.
We all have professional obligations. When the crew fails to meet them it's is absolutely the captains prerogative, not to say responsibility, to enforce them.
It's not a matter of leniency and camraderie, this is about professional safety standards.
As a co-pilot my mate and I once over-indulged "The Lunch Time Beer" that one might partake of to assist the afternoon sleep prior to a nighttime departure.
We didn't consider ourselves drunk, but we sat at the back of the crew bus to avoid conversation, and when on the aircraft my mate, who's sector it was to navigate pulled up the curtain at the Nav. table and imbibed 100% oxygen,whilst I dictated the check list in the right hand seat as carefully as I could and avoided direct chat.
The Captain started up, pushed back, taxied out, lined up on the runway, then quietly said - You have control.
After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?
I didn't.
We didn't consider ourselves drunk, but we sat at the back of the crew bus to avoid conversation, and when on the aircraft my mate, who's sector it was to navigate pulled up the curtain at the Nav. table and imbibed 100% oxygen,whilst I dictated the check list in the right hand seat as carefully as I could and avoided direct chat.
The Captain started up, pushed back, taxied out, lined up on the runway, then quietly said - You have control.
After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?
I didn't.
The Captain started up, pushed back, taxied out, lined up on the runway, then quietly said - You have control.
After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?
I didn't
After I'd fought the beast to top of climb and engaged the autopilot, he said - You won't do that again, will you ?
I didn't
After the Captain had flown the take-off, he popped the autopilot in and handed control to my ex-Capt chum. Who then had to fly without the benefit of another pilot beside him for the next few hours - with an ever-worsening hangover. After eventually returning to his seat and taking control for the approach and landing, all the Captain said to my chum was "Learn anything today?"......
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About 20 years ago I reported for a ferry from a Large Airport in the North West, my base, to a Similar Sized Airport in the South East, the captains base. The Captain, who was quite famous for his boozing, had clearly not had too much sleep the night before. He Told me I could fly it down. I refused. I figured it would be better for me to monitor him and comunicate, rather than let him. But I really hoped he would go sick. He reluctantly agreed to fly. So I let him, remember it was only him and me on the aeroplane. He managed ok, but I think he leaned his lesson. He left shortly after.
But, and I ask you all to consider this. Very few aviation incedents indeed have had consumption of alcohol as a contributary cause, let alone a primary one. Indeed when I was working in my airline's flight safety office and reserched the subject, I could find only one such incedent involving a passenger carrying jet transport.
But, and I ask you all to consider this. Very few aviation incedents indeed have had consumption of alcohol as a contributary cause, let alone a primary one. Indeed when I was working in my airline's flight safety office and reserched the subject, I could find only one such incedent involving a passenger carrying jet transport.
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Out of interest - what will happen to Mr Cope in this instance ?
6 months in a federal jail, followed by 6 months of house arrest. His name will be all over Google for many years, so presumably major airlines will be loath to touch him.
6 months in a federal jail, followed by 6 months of house arrest. His name will be all over Google for many years, so presumably major airlines will be loath to touch him.
That other 'last refuge of a scoundrel', expat flying, has given some a chance to rehabilitate their reputations and even embellish their qualifications, there is another thread here on that subject. Hey, it worked for me.
If Mr. Cope's former employer has a HIMS program (see: HIMS - A Substance Abuse Treatment Program For Commercial Pilots ), there is a possibility that he may be returned to his former position with seniority intact after serving prison time, going through rehab and perhaps earning all of his flight ratings from scratch. Lyle Prouse has posted here on PPRuNe about his pioneering return to duty after the infamous Northwest Airlines alcohol incident in Fargo, ND in 1990. A profile of Captain Prouse is here: Lyle Prouse
Prouse and his FE at the time, Joe Balzer have differing views of the events leading up to incident. Balzer currently flies for American Airlines and his version of the Fargo incident is given in this preview of his recent book: Flying Drunk: The True Story of a ... - Joseph Balzer - Google Books
We don't get sober unless we are made to!
Alcoholism is a developed disease. It is rare for the inflicted to ask for help due to the repercussions , this is a cultural problem.
In my personal experience as an alcoholic: Alcoholism is "a disease that develops". I.e. once you have it, it always gets worse. I believe that about 80 per cent of alcoholics acquire it genetically. We don't know how the other 20% get it. We do know that without certain genetic attributes, no person can swallow enough alcohol to pick up an addiction to the stuff! (I am massively over-simplifying here).
I suggest that it is indeed rare for the afflicted to ask for help: about 80 per cent of us die of the disease before we do that. And none of us do so willingly!
I personally did not "ask for help" until the pain of the repercussions exceeded the bliss available from drinking. I don't know any other alkies who did differently.
What's my point? My point is that alcoholics who survive this disease would be among the first to support harsh and inflexible penalties.
Because we know that without them, we will all die of this disease!
However, I suggest to you that many of these reports of booze in the cockpit are about non-alcoholics. Alcoholics expertly manage their booze consumption so they avoid the most obvious pitfalls. I drank for 26 years and never blew over the limit behind the wheel: alcoholics can do that.
Either way: my vote is keep the penalties, and make them inflexible: because my soon-to-become friends will die if you don't :-)
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I can't believe what I am reading
I hold a US commercial drivers license and do long distance charter bus operations. We are FORBIDDEN to drink any alcoholic beverage from 12 hours before a trip until we park the bus and leave the yard.
That means if I do a five day three state trip I can not drink alcohol for the entire five days! Three to five day trips are not unusual and it is a pain in the behind to not enjoy a beer for five days 'cause I drink a beer before dinner, wine with dinner, and a scotch after dinner every night if I am off for the next 12 hours.
The NO ALCOHOL rule is absolutely clear at the time we accept our assignments and there is absolutely no room for exceptions.
I am only responsible for 50 people and a 18 ton bus at 65 mph - why should you pilots with so much more responsibility think you should have lower standards than we lowly bus drivers?
It is appalling that any of you can even begin to make an excuse for this guy or consider there is any plausible explanation for his behavior.
And.. because I have a commercial license I am legally drunk at .04 blood alcohol level in any state in the US. Every state, if I am give an alcohol test, will report back to my home state and I will be held to the standards of that state - no matter what the law was in the state in which I was tested.
If I fail a breathalyzer I automatically lose ALL (private and commercial) driving privileges for one year and I will be unemployable as a commercial driver for many years. If the company does hire me - their insurance company will never provide insurance.
We do get random urine and blood tests several times a year - both when we report for work and when we return from a trip. There is no room for negotiations, no room for fudging, and no pity on the part of the company, union, or other drivers.
I'd expect no less from professional pilots.
That means if I do a five day three state trip I can not drink alcohol for the entire five days! Three to five day trips are not unusual and it is a pain in the behind to not enjoy a beer for five days 'cause I drink a beer before dinner, wine with dinner, and a scotch after dinner every night if I am off for the next 12 hours.
The NO ALCOHOL rule is absolutely clear at the time we accept our assignments and there is absolutely no room for exceptions.
I am only responsible for 50 people and a 18 ton bus at 65 mph - why should you pilots with so much more responsibility think you should have lower standards than we lowly bus drivers?
It is appalling that any of you can even begin to make an excuse for this guy or consider there is any plausible explanation for his behavior.
And.. because I have a commercial license I am legally drunk at .04 blood alcohol level in any state in the US. Every state, if I am give an alcohol test, will report back to my home state and I will be held to the standards of that state - no matter what the law was in the state in which I was tested.
If I fail a breathalyzer I automatically lose ALL (private and commercial) driving privileges for one year and I will be unemployable as a commercial driver for many years. If the company does hire me - their insurance company will never provide insurance.
We do get random urine and blood tests several times a year - both when we report for work and when we return from a trip. There is no room for negotiations, no room for fudging, and no pity on the part of the company, union, or other drivers.
I'd expect no less from professional pilots.
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TacomaSailor,
I hold a HGV C+E licence (Artic, in case you Yanks call it something different), and I can tell ya, it's a lot easier to pull off flying an aircraft convincingly whilst drunk than it is a truck!!!
I hold a HGV C+E licence (Artic, in case you Yanks call it something different), and I can tell ya, it's a lot easier to pull off flying an aircraft convincingly whilst drunk than it is a truck!!!
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TacomaSailor
At the rate this economy is going you are probably doing better than the average pilot and with more resilience!
What causes people to seek solace in the bottle?
Crap economy perhaps?
At the rate this economy is going you are probably doing better than the average pilot and with more resilience!
What causes people to seek solace in the bottle?
Crap economy perhaps?
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John McGhie
However, I suggest to you that many of these reports of booze in the cockpit are about non-alcoholics. Alcoholics expertly manage their booze consumption so they avoid the most obvious pitfalls. I drank for 26 years and never blew over the limit behind the wheel: alcoholics can do that.
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“if you have any problem taking a breathalyzer, call off sick and get out of here,” to which Cope replied, “well, I guess I better call off sick then.” Obodzinski was directed by his company to escort Cope to an alcohol testing facility in DIA’s main terminal.
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Smithy, see "Airbuba" on page one. Looks like Skipper already reported him to the company, union, welfare and anyone else who would listen before returning to the cockpit and offering poor old cojo the option ! Remember too that we are commenting on 'alledged' reporting by the media. They sometimes get it wrong. Like others, I too have faced the problem. At Base, easy. Downroute with 10 hours ahead and no replacement, some careful judgement. No covering the out & out drunk looking to punch everyone in sight & grabbing at every ass (male & female), but the odd rolling of the eyes, slight whiff, "Before shtarts complete" instead of "Before starts complete" requires the Command judgement for which we are all paid fortunes for.........................yeah right !
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grounded27:
The average pilot would really had to have tied one on to have much of a BAC 8 hours after the last intake, much less 12. What is bad is the hangover and its negative effects on performance.
A simple over the counter Breathalyzer would surprise many to their BAC in the morning. Not a pilot but as regulated as an AMT I learned my limit this way. The 12hrs bottle to throttle guideline does not work. Size, weight body function.. To many variables.
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I still don't get this, the cpt seems to give him the option of calling off sick and goinh home rather than take a breathalyser test, then when the FO says he better call off sick the cpt escorts him off the plane for the breath test???????