Polish LOT 767 wheels up landing
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@ fotoguzzi : assuming the cb by itself is ok there are only two positions : pushed in and connected or popped out and disconnected. there are no intermediate positions or possibility to disconnect electrically while physically pushed in or vice versa.
my best quess is the cb popped during first try of alt gear extension and they did not checked and tried again or truly it was popped by e.g a pilots case and they overlooked it. i doubt they forgot to look at the cb,s its one of the first things when a system in an aircraft refuses to work.
the interesting question is if they checked the cb after first try of alt gear extension or if they tried alt gear a single time and after alt gear failed just prepared for a gear up landing.
the next question is if in any case the crew can be blamed directly. does the abnormal checklist on a 767 cover the rechecking of the cb,s when alt gear fails?
when not the pilot can say- " procedures were followed, i tried alt gear, it did not work, so a gear up landing was the final result, for anything else ask the manufacturer of this aircraft and not me "
my best quess is the cb popped during first try of alt gear extension and they did not checked and tried again or truly it was popped by e.g a pilots case and they overlooked it. i doubt they forgot to look at the cb,s its one of the first things when a system in an aircraft refuses to work.
the interesting question is if they checked the cb after first try of alt gear extension or if they tried alt gear a single time and after alt gear failed just prepared for a gear up landing.
the next question is if in any case the crew can be blamed directly. does the abnormal checklist on a 767 cover the rechecking of the cb,s when alt gear fails?
when not the pilot can say- " procedures were followed, i tried alt gear, it did not work, so a gear up landing was the final result, for anything else ask the manufacturer of this aircraft and not me "
Duty cycle limits are normally designed to prevent a motor from overheating. Not sure why exceeding them would cause a breaker to trip. Unless, of course, the motor overheated to the point where the insulation burned off the coils and caused a short. But then it presumably wouldn't have worked on the ground.
A mechanical jam that stalled the motor might cause an overload and trip the breaker, but that wouldn't be directly related to duty cycle.
A mechanical jam that stalled the motor might cause an overload and trip the breaker, but that wouldn't be directly related to duty cycle.
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Originally Posted by Roo
...But the combined loads further upstream may have caused the BAT BUS DISTR to trip first. ...
I could say it politely: Maybe possible,
but when i must be honest: NO !
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Bet it was left tripped by engineering after their work. Difficult breaker to see especially if bags papers giraffes & whatever other toot gets piled around cockpits these days.
But every breaker should be looked at intently.
But every breaker should be looked at intently.
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I bet you are a pilot
How would the generators have closed onto the busses with that CB tripped? Since the CB in question controls those (and a large portion of the other, if not all, electrical control units) as well.
IMHO everything is pointing to a CB trip of C829, probably at the activation of the ALT GEAR extension sequence.
I suspect the final report will say the crew failed to identify the C829 as tripped and was unable to resolve that resultant issue in flight (including in discussion with MX).
Even if it tripped but not popped and was "jarred" loose during the "grind-out", as some have suggested, I would still be surprised that a basic "cycling" of the breakers was not done when dealing with an issue as severe as this.
To each their own though, I guess my "archaic" techniques learned as an engineer don't have a lot of room in the age of EICAS.
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...I'm reminded of a quote from a grizzled old FE.
One of the less obvious benefits of the old 3 man Flt Deck was the fact that Pilots and Engineers (FEs) were trained differently which could produce a parallel and complementary approach to problem solving and priorities.
Given a telescope, a Pilot would naturally look through it, an FE would look at it.......
.......then make sure the Pilot was looking through the right end.
One of the less obvious benefits of the old 3 man Flt Deck was the fact that Pilots and Engineers (FEs) were trained differently which could produce a parallel and complementary approach to problem solving and priorities.
Given a telescope, a Pilot would naturally look through it, an FE would look at it.......
.......then make sure the Pilot was looking through the right end.
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Duty cycle limits are normally designed to prevent a motor from overheating. Not sure why exceeding them would cause a breaker to trip.
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A couple of points interest me.
Will it be worth spending millions on repairing the aircraft which at 14 years of age and with 80,000 flying hours is about 2/3 into its useful life?
I wonder how the flight crew will be handled and if they are back flying yet. LOT may decide the crew have done a great job of the landing and it all depends on whether management regard missing the popped cb as a minor error that any crew might have made or an extremely serious one. There will doubtless be a big debate on whether they did well or not.
It reminds me a litle of the Air Transat glider into the Azores. The crew did a great job of the deadstick landing and saved the plane but might have managed the circumstances that led to it a bit better.
I hope they keep their medals and jobs.
Will it be worth spending millions on repairing the aircraft which at 14 years of age and with 80,000 flying hours is about 2/3 into its useful life?
I wonder how the flight crew will be handled and if they are back flying yet. LOT may decide the crew have done a great job of the landing and it all depends on whether management regard missing the popped cb as a minor error that any crew might have made or an extremely serious one. There will doubtless be a big debate on whether they did well or not.
It reminds me a litle of the Air Transat glider into the Azores. The crew did a great job of the deadstick landing and saved the plane but might have managed the circumstances that led to it a bit better.
I hope they keep their medals and jobs.
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"Bet it was left tripped by engineering after their work..."
Pure rubbish. Do a bit of research and find out which systems are powered by the popped c/b. Then, do a bit more research and determine when these different systems are used in the course of operating the aircraft. You will clearly be able to determine that the c/b popped AFTER a certain point in time.....and this point in time was after the flight crew was operating the aircraft.
You wont be able to determine why it popped or exactly when it popped but it should be clear (and easy to determine) that it popped AFTER the aircraft was configured for flight.
Pure rubbish. Do a bit of research and find out which systems are powered by the popped c/b. Then, do a bit more research and determine when these different systems are used in the course of operating the aircraft. You will clearly be able to determine that the c/b popped AFTER a certain point in time.....and this point in time was after the flight crew was operating the aircraft.
You wont be able to determine why it popped or exactly when it popped but it should be clear (and easy to determine) that it popped AFTER the aircraft was configured for flight.
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According to rumours from "credible" sources in Warsaw,
LOT's B767 SP-LPC won't be repaired.
Although it would have been, apparently, possible to repair the damaged structures relatively cheaply, neither engine can be repaired economically.
LOT's B767 SP-LPC won't be repaired.
Although it would have been, apparently, possible to repair the damaged structures relatively cheaply, neither engine can be repaired economically.
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Bet it was left tripped by engineering after their work.
Mistrust in Management
Standard procedures for maintence is to tag a breaker when it is pulled.
Not saying this was the case in this incident of course - how would I know - but the possibility is there.
Despite that, the responsibility for checking CB's rest with the Crew before flight and also when a system fails (easy to overlook in the heat of the moment I might add)
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I wonder how the flight crew will be handled and if they are back flying yet. LOT may decide the crew have done a great job of the landing and it all depends on whether management regard missing the popped cb as a minor error that any crew might have made or an extremely serious one. There will doubtless be a big debate on whether they did well or not.
[quote]
President Bronislaw Komorowski expressed his heartfelt thanks to the crew and the ground workers "on behalf of all Poland, which held its breath while watching the dramatic developments."
Komorowski said the pilot's skill and expertise saved many lives, but also gave the Poles a powerfully "positive" outcome.
The LOT airlines plane carrying 231 people from Newark, New Jersey made the emergency landing Nov. 1 after its landing gear failed to open.
Komorowski decorated the crew members and representatives of airport ground and rescue services with medals. Among them was pilot Capt. Tadeusz Wrona, who became an instant hero in Poland, who was awarded the Officer's Cross of the Order of Poland's Rebirth.
Wrona and co-pilot Jerzy Szwarc landed the plane so carefully that some passengers thought it had landed on wheels until they saw smoke, fire and sparks. Emergency workers immediately doused the plane and nobody was hurt.
Read more: Poland honors crew who made safe emergency landing - seattlepi.com]
Seems to me they are to be handled very well!
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This crew had all kinds of time to deal with their problem. Time will tell if it was handled properly. There appears to be potential for it looking like an aircraft writeoff due to a popped CB, but that is only speculation at this point(with solid reasoning for that speculation).
However it turns out, this thread is a good reminder to never assume that a second failure happened because of an earlier failure.
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Because the USAir crew had no engines over the middle of a huge city all of a sudden at low altitude. An immediate decision was made that led to a successful ditching.
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