Polish LOT 767 wheels up landing

[lear60fellow]

I don´t know B757/B767 systems but lots of my friends do and fly them daily but me question is, you´ve already beaten murphy´s once today, then twice with that alternate system not working at all and you fly over the atlantic where murphy´s is most expected to come again (it did at the end)

Great landing for the guys, I wish I could do one like that but still don´t get the point to risk that long flight back to Warsaw. You´re ETOPS, is still the aircraft ETOP´s if you get that system failure?

So far on my trainning during the last 20 years if you have a main system failure stay where you are and then think, look at the alternatives and then proceed, but surely I will not go 7-8 hrs over the atlantic if I have an alternate airport 30 minutes away, come on, it´s an hidraulic system failure, it´s not an FMS or one generator off line.

[Hotel Tango]

I just thought this landing was also pretty good considering there were no injuries or fatalities and the hull looked pretty good at the end no break ups etc.

In my book it was a controlled belly landing on a foamed runway well executed by a professional crew. It would take considerable bad luck for it to end up a wreck with fatalities.

Too many OTT remarks in this thread in my opinion.

[B767PL]

lear60

Keep in mind that they discovered the gear won't come down, even by means of alternate extension, and they will be landing on the belly just a few minutes prior to landing, and not back over the U.S.

If you would have chosen to divert, that is fine, you choice and call. The fact they chose to continue, is fine just as well, and in compliance with their SOPs, and in my humble opinion was a good and calculated call, given the knowledge they seemed to have at the time.

[B767PL]

kpt. T. Wrona has just said it was a loss of quantity on the center hydraulic system. Don't know if that has been mentioned here yet.

[root]

I saw the footage and it looked really smooth and well executed.

I can't wait for the report and subsequent findings. I'm betting there's a whole department of engineers over at Everett scratching their heads right now.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

With all due respect Lear60fellow you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

you´ve already beaten murphy´s once today, then twice with that alternate system not working at all and you fly over the atlantic where murphy´s is most expected to come again (it did at the end)

The ALTN GEAR extension malfunction wouldn't have manifested itself until the crew actioned the deferred items in the QRH (CTR HYD SYS PRESS) [if in fact this was the root cause] so your point is moot.

With this hyd failure (767) ETOPS is not affected (in my experience).

Great landing for the guys, I wish I could do one like that

Honestly, you wish you could "do one like that"....Back to your computer and leave the conjecture to those a little more informed....

[Rananim]

Nice piece of flying from this LOT Captain and crew.The only thing that counts when things go wrong up there is airmanship and this was a perfect example of that.You can do all the CRM courses and study the SOP manuals till you're blue in the face but it wont amount to a hill of beans when something like this happens.In the final analysis,only airmanship counts for anything.Some airlines know this.Some dont.

[Airbubba]

With this hyd failure (767) ETOPS is not affected (in my experience).

Well, you do lose the HDG (aka HMG in the MEL). And, as you point out, you can be dispatched ER(=ETOPS) with the HDG inop with the other generators operating normally. For over 120 minutes ETOPS you need to run the APU during the ETOPS part of the flight.

Whether it is wise or legal to continue ETOPS with the loss of center hydraulics will be debated by the geniuses with diagrams and highlighters in the training building for years to come.

Some news reports seem to indicate that the hydraulic problem was not evident until the gear was lowered for landing. Anybody have an update on that?

[Green Guard]

lear60

I will not go 7-8 hrs over the atlantic if I have an alternate airport 30 minutes away, come on, it´s an hidraulic system failure, it´s not an FMS or one generator off line.

very interesting, so you would gladly continue all over Atlantic without FMS or a Generator

[Airbubba]

very interesting, so you would gladly continue all over Atlantic without FMS or a Generator

Well, you can certainly be dispatched out of the blocks over the Atlantic with an inoperative generator on the 767 under 120 minute ETOPS. And you can enter ETOPS airspace with an inoperative FMC (you need two IRU's and two CDU's).

[criss]

arc-en-ciel:

A/c stopped exactly on the intersection of runways (11/29 and 15/33, landing was on 33), that's why the other runway can't be used, and AD had to be closed. LOT hangars are in the northeast part of the AD, near MIL apron, if you take a look at the chart. And no, AD certainly wasn't in emergency phase 7 hours prior to landing, there was no reason for it. As I said, first indication of any problems was only at final approach, HighSpeedAluminum is correct, altn gear extention malfunction was supposed to work correctly. So only after it's failure, AD was initially put on uncertainty phase, then alert (emergency).

[Ptkay]

Sullenberger commenting on the LOT 016 landing.

CNN.com International - Breaking, World, Business, Sports, Entertainment and Video News

Very clear confirmation of the need of good flying skills to achieve such outcome.

[Swedish Steve]

There was a case some time back on a B757 Freighter on a high security European flight (money) where the local plod insisted on inspecting the landing gear bays. So open the panel underneath, select the Door Arm switch and Doors Open. Nothing. Scratch head, check the books and try again -still nothing. So AOG - same system does the alternate gear. The B767 has the same system.

The system of alternate gear extension are quite different on B757 and B767. the B757 has electrical switches that operate a hyd pump that uses L HYD to power the door locks open.
On the B767 a rotary actuator under the flight deck floor operates a cable system that mechanically opens the door up locks.
Strange that the B767 has mechanical cables under the floor of the flight deck, but a small electrical actuator to operate them. Why not a hatch in the floor like B737? Perhaps the switch is for commonality with the B757, to make the pilots think that two different systems are the same.

[arc-en-ciel]

thanks criss for info,
really a shame it stopped right at the intersection ,
any guess how the aircraft will be removed ? cranes ? lift bags ? on its own wheels or on jacks ?

I agree with you that airport was not in emergency 7 hours prior to the landing, that's why I don't quite understand the LOT announcement, neither that they have stated the center hydraulic only. It would have been more correct for LOT to write that BOTH Center and alternate hydraulics failed. Aviation accidents are rarely due to only one cause.

[arc-en-ciel]

So if I understand correctly, the B767 has a handle in the cockpit to operate the gear in emergency, with one cable that goes to the 3 gears, and then 3 electrical actuators (one on each gear) to open the uplock , correct ?
then or :
- the handle got broken
- the cable got broken
- the 3 different actuators all failed at the same time ?!?!?

please don't tell me the 3 actuators are supplied by the same busbar

[flipperb]

So if I understand correctly, the B767 has a handle in the cockpit to operate the gear in emergency, with one cable that goes to the 3 gears, and then 3 electrical actuators (one on each gear) to open the uplock , correct ?
then or :
- the handle got broken
- the cable got broken
- the 3 different actuators all failed at the same time ?!?!?

please don't tell me the 3 actuators are supplied by the same busbar

I would want all 3 actuators controlled by the same bus. Could really ruin your day if the left main gear deployed and the right didn't...

[grebllaw123d]

arc-en-ciel:

There is no handle in the cockpit for operation of the alternate gear extension system.
There is a guarded switch below the landing gear handle - by selecting this switch to ON supplies power to an electrical actuator which is connected to the uplocks with cables.
So a failure in this arrangement could explain the failure of all the 3 gears to extend.
See also #173.

[cfijacho]

SP-LPC smiles

[Ptkay]

Already towed back to hangar on her own wheels.

Not only all people saved, but probably the machine as well.

It is more and more probable that she will fly again.

[arc-en-ciel]

I would want all 3 actuators controlled by the same bus. Could really ruin your day if the left main gear deployed and the right didn't...

You would, I wouldn't, always better one gear than nothing (text book)

so when was the last maintenance of this actuators/cables/back-up system performed?

is it wise to leave an hydraulic system leaking everywhere inside for 7/8 hours ?