Dual Control Input whilst landing
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Obviously some captains (who think they know better than the manuals) think this is their "right".
I would without doubt bring this up with the captain(s) in question. They may have a reason for making inputs and it is their right to take control at any time. The safety implications of dual inputs in the flare and at any time in flight have been covered by BOAC and others already in the thread. I wouldn't "quietly put up with it". If they are making dual inputs without taking control it is a safety problem and you should deal with the issue positively, firstly with a cordial and polite conversation with the skipper.
As an aside it can be frustrating to fly with a Captain who perhaps lacks confidence in you as a co-pilot and acts in a way that you perceive limits your ability to think and fly in the manner you are accustomed to. These guys exist in every airline. I have found the closer you get to the LHS, the more you put yourself in their position, and it gets easier to understand why some skippers act in this way. It is not a slur on your character or ability. Ultimately it is their command and their responsibility, and is just part and parcel of life as an F/O. We all get the chance to move across to the LHS eventually.
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As an aside it can be frustrating to fly with a Captain who perhaps lacks confidence in you as a co-pilot and acts in a way that you perceive limits your ability to think and fly in the manner you are accustomed to. These guys exist in every airline.
First requirement was a take off, and normal circuit and landing. The PNF in the RH seat was a chatterbox and obsessed with continual prompting, cajoling, and basically non-stop "helping" the PF all the way around the circuit. Such was his rate of gabble, the Japanese had no hope of understanding what he was saying. It must have driven his fellow countryman who was PF in the LH seat, around the bend. Both were eastern Europeans
The PF did a very long downwind leg and subsequently undershot to blazes while disregarding GPWS warnings of below glide slope. In short it was pretty lousy flying.
The two check pilots whose English as I said was extremely limited, said they thought the PNF had given excellent support and assessed his verbal diarrhoea as example of very good CRM.
Of course it was obvious they didn't understand one bloody word the PNF was on about, but the fact that he gesticulated freely and talked non-stop until touch-down, pleased them enormously. He won a command slot but didn't last too long. I suspect his yakking got on other crew members' nerves.
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JC
I think you should relax about the hands and feet being on the controls - it makes the R/T easier and allows immediate takeover in the event of incapacitation. It is a requirement in some airlines that PNF (whether Capt or F/O) has a hand on the sidestick and feet (lightly) on the rudder pedals.. It is actually Airbus policy for PNF, though you won't find it in FCOM or FCTM at the moment...
Dual input is another matter entirely and you are right to raise the issue - full takeover of control is the only correct way to handle the situation.
I think you should relax about the hands and feet being on the controls - it makes the R/T easier and allows immediate takeover in the event of incapacitation. It is a requirement in some airlines that PNF (whether Capt or F/O) has a hand on the sidestick and feet (lightly) on the rudder pedals.. It is actually Airbus policy for PNF, though you won't find it in FCOM or FCTM at the moment...
Dual input is another matter entirely and you are right to raise the issue - full takeover of control is the only correct way to handle the situation.
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I always recall the well-worn RAF QFI brief for the student's first night dual:
"Night flying is just like day flying really, except the controls feel heavier"
"Night flying is just like day flying really, except the controls feel heavier"
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John Citizen,
Yes it can be annoying but never do anything to compromise safety out of frustration or revenge.If he wants control,let him have it.And never snitch.Speak to him face to face like a man.Fight your own battles son.And when youre Captain,dont make his mistakes.Unnecessary dual input is a sign of an insecure Captain.
Yes it can be annoying but never do anything to compromise safety out of frustration or revenge.If he wants control,let him have it.And never snitch.Speak to him face to face like a man.Fight your own battles son.And when youre Captain,dont make his mistakes.Unnecessary dual input is a sign of an insecure Captain.
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John Citizen,
Besides it affecting your peace of mind, it puts you under pressure to prove your competence each time you fly. Whereas, your PIC is refusing to see your state, you must be aware of it and may at times be affected by it. Watch out for stress and its ill-effects.
Besides it affecting your peace of mind, it puts you under pressure to prove your competence each time you fly. Whereas, your PIC is refusing to see your state, you must be aware of it and may at times be affected by it. Watch out for stress and its ill-effects.
BOAC is so right about the fact of one pilot always flying the aircraft. Never hand over control to anyone until you're sure he has taken it over. Re JC's problem it really depends on company policy. However if PNF is guarding the controls at critical stages it should never interfere with your handling. If he's not happy with your flying he should take control by pressing the takeover Pb (in an Airbus) and stating that he has control. There should NEVER be a dual input on the controls as the inputs are added by the system
If your Capt is not happy with your flying he should tell you but not interfere in your handling. He always has the right to take over for any or indeed no reason if he so wishes. If he continues to interfere then talk to someone about it. In my experience these Capts do not have the confidence that they should have in their F/Os - always assuming the F/O is doing the job properly!
If your Capt is not happy with your flying he should tell you but not interfere in your handling. He always has the right to take over for any or indeed no reason if he so wishes. If he continues to interfere then talk to someone about it. In my experience these Capts do not have the confidence that they should have in their F/Os - always assuming the F/O is doing the job properly!
Last edited by johannschmith; 1st Mar 2011 at 07:35. Reason: Spelling
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If this happens to most First Officers with most captains at your outfit you have an organizational problem. I would go to the standards guy.
If this happens to you (only) with most captains there is something you are doing that is generating that (wrong) response. I would talk with a friendly TC, ask to fly with him and find out if you could do things differently (flare earlier?, etc)
If this happens to you with just a couple of captains. They have a problem, I would hand over control (but not during the flare) as suggested.
When you are next in the sim ask to perform a toga 10 as a late take over from a mishandled landing. I think you will find it quite enlightening, in the airbus it is very hard. You may find a new sympathy for the captains.
Having said all that dual input is a real no no in the airbus for the reasons already mentioned. In my outfit it will be picked up by FDM and a friendly but firm phone call will ensue.
If this happens to you (only) with most captains there is something you are doing that is generating that (wrong) response. I would talk with a friendly TC, ask to fly with him and find out if you could do things differently (flare earlier?, etc)
If this happens to you with just a couple of captains. They have a problem, I would hand over control (but not during the flare) as suggested.
When you are next in the sim ask to perform a toga 10 as a late take over from a mishandled landing. I think you will find it quite enlightening, in the airbus it is very hard. You may find a new sympathy for the captains.
Having said all that dual input is a real no no in the airbus for the reasons already mentioned. In my outfit it will be picked up by FDM and a friendly but firm phone call will ensue.
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No need for dual control touch...
Why ever would the PM need to "follow through" on the controls by having his feet touching the pedals and having his paw touching the control stick/yoke/wheel..? With feet on the floor, how far would that be from the rudder/brake pedals...6 inches, 12 inches? How many milliseconds would it take to be on the pedals if necessary? How far would your hand be from the stick/yoke/wheel...? How many milliseconds would it take to grab the stick/yoke/wheel if necessary?
Now and then I would see an F/O place his hand(s) on the wheel [B747] during turbulence in cruise; and I would ask him if he was "helping" the autopilot negotiate the inputs; I tell him that if he wants to keep his hands on the wheel that he would have to disconnect the autopilot and fly manual, because I would want to know who's flying the airplane. The usual answer would be that he was only having his hand on the wheel in case the A/P were to disconnect. Gee...it's the same story: How many milliseconds would it take to grab the wheel if the A/P were to disconnect?
Now and then I would see an F/O place his hand(s) on the wheel [B747] during turbulence in cruise; and I would ask him if he was "helping" the autopilot negotiate the inputs; I tell him that if he wants to keep his hands on the wheel that he would have to disconnect the autopilot and fly manual, because I would want to know who's flying the airplane. The usual answer would be that he was only having his hand on the wheel in case the A/P were to disconnect. Gee...it's the same story: How many milliseconds would it take to grab the wheel if the A/P were to disconnect?
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Gee Glueball,
Isn't that a bit pedantic?
I can tell you it's not just fo's putting their hands on the wheel (and throttles) during turbulence. Captains do the same.
Some would call it reflex, others might call it airmanship. Especially the 747 autopilot/autothrust system isn't the best in dealing with turbulence.
Going back to the original issue, I found that changing fleet from boeing to airbus would make some skippers a bit twitchy, because on the boeing they could "feel" what the fo was doing and limit any excessive inputs if required, but on the bus he can obviously not feel what's happening as his stick isn't moving (so to speak
). So maybe that's a factor?
PS. By the way Glueball, if you "want to know who's flying the aircraft" then maybe you should consider looking at your FMA's in front of you. They've got some great info
Isn't that a bit pedantic?
I can tell you it's not just fo's putting their hands on the wheel (and throttles) during turbulence. Captains do the same.
Some would call it reflex, others might call it airmanship. Especially the 747 autopilot/autothrust system isn't the best in dealing with turbulence.
Going back to the original issue, I found that changing fleet from boeing to airbus would make some skippers a bit twitchy, because on the boeing they could "feel" what the fo was doing and limit any excessive inputs if required, but on the bus he can obviously not feel what's happening as his stick isn't moving (so to speak
). So maybe that's a factor?PS. By the way Glueball, if you "want to know who's flying the aircraft" then maybe you should consider looking at your FMA's in front of you. They've got some great info
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JC, why don't you just wait until you've shut down and then ask him if there was anything wrong with your approach and landing.
If he says no you can then ask him why he felt that he had to interfere.
If he says yes you can ask him if that was the reason he felt he had to interfere. (you can be a bit more diplomatic though)
You never know, he might not be aware that he is doing what he is and instead of dropping him in it with the senior trainers you may just help him too.
If he says no you can then ask him why he felt that he had to interfere.
If he says yes you can ask him if that was the reason he felt he had to interfere. (you can be a bit more diplomatic though)
You never know, he might not be aware that he is doing what he is and instead of dropping him in it with the senior trainers you may just help him too.
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Blimey! Talk about a stuck record! I suggest we leave it to JC to 'sort out' since he does not really appear to have responded to several good suggestions so far? See post #21 18 Jan 2011.
Horse and water comes to mind.
Horse and water comes to mind.
From the A320 FCOM:
FLIGHT CONTROL TAKE-OVER
Because of the nature of fly by wire and Sidestick systems, PNF control inputs to correct the PF inputs are not recommended. If take-over becomes necessary during flight, the PNF clearly announces "I HAVE CONTROL" and assumes control of the aircraft. If required, the Sidestick Priority Pushbutton is pressed and held until the transfer of control is clearly established.
We have a FOQA event for dual control inputs and the results are reported in regular FOQA Reports. Sometimes it is a crew (captain) contact to find out why. Sometimes it is line-indoc, sometimes not, but the matter is addressed as it is considered a serious operational matter. It is abundantly clear in the FCOM: dual inputs on an Airbus are a no-no.
PJ2
FLIGHT CONTROL TAKE-OVER
Because of the nature of fly by wire and Sidestick systems, PNF control inputs to correct the PF inputs are not recommended. If take-over becomes necessary during flight, the PNF clearly announces "I HAVE CONTROL" and assumes control of the aircraft. If required, the Sidestick Priority Pushbutton is pressed and held until the transfer of control is clearly established.
We have a FOQA event for dual control inputs and the results are reported in regular FOQA Reports. Sometimes it is a crew (captain) contact to find out why. Sometimes it is line-indoc, sometimes not, but the matter is addressed as it is considered a serious operational matter. It is abundantly clear in the FCOM: dual inputs on an Airbus are a no-no.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 6th Mar 2011 at 20:02.
Gee Glueball,
Isn't that a bit pedantic?
Isn't that a bit pedantic?
It's our company's policy that the PNF follows through below 'circuit height'.
only one pilot should be flying the airplane...the other monitoring and assisting
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I cannot imagine anything that looks so idiotic (sometimes seen it on old flying movies with poncy actors in the cockpit) than the automatic pilot in control and a pilot "following" with his sweaty mitts grasping the wheel in eager anticipation he may have to save the aeroplane fron crashing
WRT the original thread question, I guard the stick for TO and LDG in case of:
1. FO (PF) incapacitation (subtle or otherwise)
2. If the FO actions are obvious that he's going to do something that will get me fired.
3. If he's in the process of doing something that will get me fired.
In all cases I call "I HAVE CONTROL" simultaneously pushing the little red button.
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Just to be sure, and to be clear: My F/O will not be "following me through" by touching the wheel [B747], touching the rudder pedals, or be touching the thrust levers when I am flying the sector. 