Rejecting A Takeoff After V1…why Does It (still) Happen?
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Lord I fly single pilot...give me the scenario in full..be specific and I will be happy to hash it out with you.(Plane make and model, how many people, runway length, weight, ect).
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I did say hypothetically.
You didn't appear to be too concerned about the specifics, make or model when you thought the statistics were on your side.
Just curious what you'd do.
Galaxy - 76000 Crews performed RTOs, with a 99.99% success rate of not hurting the plane or passengers.
Just curious what you'd do.
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So I will consider your post a non starter then...
The RTO numbers came from the airlines.....which I don't fly for, but since all the airline fly boy apologists seem to come here to die, I have no problem using their numbers...
You wanna talk specifics...then lay them out...don't post then dodge...it shows a lack of character....
The RTO numbers came from the airlines.....which I don't fly for, but since all the airline fly boy apologists seem to come here to die, I have no problem using their numbers...
You wanna talk specifics...then lay them out...don't post then dodge...it shows a lack of character....
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No I don't want to talk specifics. I want to know your actions should somebody, you may one day be flying with, elect to continue after V1.
You don't like dodging then answer the question.
You don't like dodging then answer the question.
Could this be our friend--Johns7022? Just sayin', shows up suddenly, posts many outrageous posts and flies a Citation Encore.
Hmmmmmmm............
A Round Lake man who was chief pilot for Family Video, a national DVD and video game chain with a number of stores in Lake County, allegedly faked aviation fuel receipts for flying executives across the country, and used the nearly $500,000 for gifts and vacations.
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Insults are the last resort or of those who depth have been drained of logic....
It's obvious I am right...it's all coming down to trolls, insults, figuring out ways to get me banned...I'm keeping it civil.
It's obvious I am right...it's all coming down to trolls, insults, figuring out ways to get me banned...I'm keeping it civil.
Amongst the professionals pilots and engineers here, you have made yourself a laughingstock with any help from others. Ignore list, for sure
GF
GF
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Wonderfull Galaxy...I suggest you load up a plane with all the other experts....do some calcs...find a balanced field of say...5000 feet..and roll up and down Kabul International all day...and remember....always Pull Up at V1.
Because no matter what ALL PLANES FLY AFTER V1
Yes siree...you heard it right here on PPRUNE...that once you get V1...it's smooth sailing boys..the plane will fly...you betcha.
Because no matter what ALL PLANES FLY AFTER V1
Yes siree...you heard it right here on PPRUNE...that once you get V1...it's smooth sailing boys..the plane will fly...you betcha.
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LSM, apologies from the rest of the proon membership, but waiting for an answer from this dill is akin to waiting for hell to freeze over. Basically he is unable to answer because he has not the level of knowledge to understand the question. But I think you have already figured that out. As GF suggests put him on your ignore list. The only reason I haven't is I find his moronic posts entertaining, in as much how somebody could think they could hoodwink known professionals. Can't even talk the talk, let alone walk the walk.
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Insults are the last resort or of those who depth have been drained of logic....
Lord I suspect my Pomeranian here has more time in turbine aircraft then you do.
Brian, no need to apologise, I feel the same way.
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 11th Dec 2010 at 11:31. Reason: early morning biffery
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I wouldn't apologize for Brian I am sure he has found the Darwinian inevitable answer to his place in aviation.
As far as what I would do, if someone continued after V1..
By continue you mean? and if it was someone else...what do I care.?
As far as what I would do, if someone continued after V1..
By continue you mean? and if it was someone else...what do I care.?
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By continue I mean, well, continue, carry on, go, not stop etc..
If you go back to my original question which I posed hypothetically you will be able to work out why you would care.
I am curious about what you would do, hypothetically, if you were, hypothetically, part of a two man crew and the other pilot wanted to continue after you heard a big bang at or above V1, hypothetically.
If you go back to my original question which I posed hypothetically you will be able to work out why you would care.
I am curious about what you would do, hypothetically, if you were, hypothetically, part of a two man crew and the other pilot wanted to continue after you heard a big bang at or above V1, hypothetically.
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You continuously talk about a required takeoff length of 5000 on a 10,000 ft runway, but what if the runway was 8000 ft or even 6000 feet, what is your concept of an acceptable margin? Would you consider "putting it down again after VLOF"? Also considering that you are here to educate us, kindly tell us WHAT VERSION of FAR 25.109 your last aircraft was certified under.
We employ 1500 pilots...... EVERY LAST one of them is trained to GO AT V1.... and I'm not just talking about airline flights, but the highest level of VVIP. So are they all wrong ?
Finally, apart from 1, all of our corporate aircraft have the ability to use FLEX/REDUCED THRUST... so it appears that even corporate aircraft/engine manufacturers don't agree with you.
GF..... they have some interesting items installed that require a checklist
Mutt
We employ 1500 pilots...... EVERY LAST one of them is trained to GO AT V1.... and I'm not just talking about airline flights, but the highest level of VVIP. So are they all wrong ?
Finally, apart from 1, all of our corporate aircraft have the ability to use FLEX/REDUCED THRUST... so it appears that even corporate aircraft/engine manufacturers don't agree with you.
GF..... they have some interesting items installed that require a checklist
Mutt
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Lord.......when I fly with other people, as a general rule...99.99% of the time...I am either PIC with a passenger up front....or as an instructor with a student...I did the performance planning...and thus I will make the call to roll it out, or fly it off....
But during the times where I have flown SIC in say a GIV or Astra...planes I wasn't trained on, I was at the mercy of the captain's decisions......to a point.....
Now oddly enough on one trip in the GIV going into LA, in a jet I had maybe, 2 hours in, SIC, Not having gone to school.....the captain got too close to a SW 737 on a visual approach....ATC warned of this....I pointed out the N NUMBERS on the jumbo jet in front to the pilot......
When the wake turbulence hit...THREE TIMES...the GIV wings went almost 90 degrees vertical..at about 45 degrees I looked at a catatonic captain...
So I pushed the yoke forward, applied enough counteracting control forces to keep the plane from flipping over....3 Times.
Of course the captain blamed it all on ATC...
So to answer your question...more directly...when flying with someone...I have no problem 'Helping' the captain make the right decision.....and taking positive control if I have to.
If that GIV was an 'Airline' hypothetically...there would have been no time for CRM, Graded Assertiveness, and little chance that an inexperienced FO would have done anything, nor recognized what to do in time to address the problem to the captain, have positive transfer of controls, ect.
I doubt you can roll a GIV at 4000 feet, at such a slow approach speed and come out of it...
But during the times where I have flown SIC in say a GIV or Astra...planes I wasn't trained on, I was at the mercy of the captain's decisions......to a point.....
Now oddly enough on one trip in the GIV going into LA, in a jet I had maybe, 2 hours in, SIC, Not having gone to school.....the captain got too close to a SW 737 on a visual approach....ATC warned of this....I pointed out the N NUMBERS on the jumbo jet in front to the pilot......
When the wake turbulence hit...THREE TIMES...the GIV wings went almost 90 degrees vertical..at about 45 degrees I looked at a catatonic captain...
So I pushed the yoke forward, applied enough counteracting control forces to keep the plane from flipping over....3 Times.
Of course the captain blamed it all on ATC...
So to answer your question...more directly...when flying with someone...I have no problem 'Helping' the captain make the right decision.....and taking positive control if I have to.
If that GIV was an 'Airline' hypothetically...there would have been no time for CRM, Graded Assertiveness, and little chance that an inexperienced FO would have done anything, nor recognized what to do in time to address the problem to the captain, have positive transfer of controls, ect.
I doubt you can roll a GIV at 4000 feet, at such a slow approach speed and come out of it...
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If that GIV was an 'Airline' hypothetically.
BTW, when you played around in that aircraft, did you happen to see that the FMS calculated REDUCED TAKEOFF THRUST??
Mutt
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So to answer your question...more directly...when flying with someone...I have no problem 'Helping' the captain make the right decision.....and taking positive control if I have to.
Maybe if I give you some options:
Ok, V1, big bang, your natural reaction is to stop, PF says go - do you:
- Take control and try to stop.
- Go against what you think is the correct course of action and allow yourself to continue.
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Lord....V1...bang...like an explosion?...I would pull the levers, take the yoke and let the plane roll out.
No I won't let the PIC kill me.
If your chasing the the 'wrestling the controls' argument....having been a flight instructor long enough...anyone I have flown with has a pretty good idea that by the time I grab the controls...the controls needed grabbing. It won't be an argument...if in some alternate universe, the PIC wanted me fired, after saving the plane/passengers...we can take that up with the boss....and he can decide if the PIC was right by trying to fly a broken plane...or I was right in creating a 'Non event'.
Since I fly corporate...this type of scenario. where I have to take control....played out in more times then I care to admit...simply leads to nothing more then my not flying with this guy again...either in my plane or his...
Everyone is alive, that's what counts.
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Mutt - Maybe before we start with what the ops are used for your organization...we can start with the hiring profile of your pilots...what type of aircraft you fly...how many incidents you have...and if in the end...if you have problems...and or your pilots are so green as to not wanting them to make a decision....then you give them nice simple non thinking solutions, and just hope that the scenario they face, will be solved by a one size fits all approach...
Honestly Mutt, if had a bunch of 200 hour pilots flying my planes....my pending heart attack and ulcers aside, I guess the best I could do is just have then fly by the numbers and hope they never run into wake turbulence, ice, wind shear, multiple problems, terrorists, jack screw problems, a fire after V1, a rudder problem, flying a plane with a composite tail.......ect ect....
As far as acceptable margin to stop a plane...in what I fly...I can and do land on 3500 ft strips..
So if I calculate a balanced field of say 5000 ft...typical day...and the field is 8000ft...then it's pretty easy to figure V1 would be roughly at 2500-3000 ft down the runway...that leaves...5000 ft, pre VR...that's pretty darn easy....
The real issue isn't just how much runway ahead but the conditions I would be pulling the broken plane into..
Taking a problem up into the soup, on a SID, in the mountains, picking up ICE, trying to get back down to minimums...as opposed to a nice easy roll out is a no brainer for me.
As far as acceptable margin...every runway is different, and weather conditions are different...it's not hard to calculate runway needed to stop...on a post V1 abort...that's easy...the real question is what's beyond the end of the runway....cliff, lava...over run, miles of flat Iowa cornfields...or just miles of nice flat dry runway...
No I won't let the PIC kill me.
If your chasing the the 'wrestling the controls' argument....having been a flight instructor long enough...anyone I have flown with has a pretty good idea that by the time I grab the controls...the controls needed grabbing. It won't be an argument...if in some alternate universe, the PIC wanted me fired, after saving the plane/passengers...we can take that up with the boss....and he can decide if the PIC was right by trying to fly a broken plane...or I was right in creating a 'Non event'.
Since I fly corporate...this type of scenario. where I have to take control....played out in more times then I care to admit...simply leads to nothing more then my not flying with this guy again...either in my plane or his...
Everyone is alive, that's what counts.
-------------
Mutt - Maybe before we start with what the ops are used for your organization...we can start with the hiring profile of your pilots...what type of aircraft you fly...how many incidents you have...and if in the end...if you have problems...and or your pilots are so green as to not wanting them to make a decision....then you give them nice simple non thinking solutions, and just hope that the scenario they face, will be solved by a one size fits all approach...
Honestly Mutt, if had a bunch of 200 hour pilots flying my planes....my pending heart attack and ulcers aside, I guess the best I could do is just have then fly by the numbers and hope they never run into wake turbulence, ice, wind shear, multiple problems, terrorists, jack screw problems, a fire after V1, a rudder problem, flying a plane with a composite tail.......ect ect....
As far as acceptable margin to stop a plane...in what I fly...I can and do land on 3500 ft strips..
So if I calculate a balanced field of say 5000 ft...typical day...and the field is 8000ft...then it's pretty easy to figure V1 would be roughly at 2500-3000 ft down the runway...that leaves...5000 ft, pre VR...that's pretty darn easy....
The real issue isn't just how much runway ahead but the conditions I would be pulling the broken plane into..
Taking a problem up into the soup, on a SID, in the mountains, picking up ICE, trying to get back down to minimums...as opposed to a nice easy roll out is a no brainer for me.
As far as acceptable margin...every runway is different, and weather conditions are different...it's not hard to calculate runway needed to stop...on a post V1 abort...that's easy...the real question is what's beyond the end of the runway....cliff, lava...over run, miles of flat Iowa cornfields...or just miles of nice flat dry runway...
Last edited by johns7022; 11th Dec 2010 at 17:51.