Approach briefing
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Approach briefing
The following starts to bother me.
It is not uncommon for the captain to start yawning just after you ask him if he is ready for the briefing. I do say him on purpose because it did not happen to me yet with a female captain.
Although this subtle gesture does indicate that he would rather prefer the co-pilot not to do a briefing, they just accept the fact it is briefing time and let me do a brief. I do try to keep the briefing short and to the point, anyway it does happen with captains with whom I never flew before, so it could not be a reaction like "there we go again".
Now what bothers me is that some captains plainly say that they don't want a briefing. You are flying, do as you like. Oddly though, it is them that start to intervene with your plan if it does not fit theirs. For example if you ask for flaps, reply is too early only to find yourself fast and above glide 2 minutes later. Or you plan a visual with a 3 mile final, and they force you to turn at 2 miles and guess what you end up high again.
On one or two occasions, after being told that a briefing is not neccessary, I do one silently for myself only to find that the ILS was not tuned. Although I do agree that the setup should be done correctly before the briefing, the briefing would be a last opportunity to catch something like that. And it does happen that you forrgot something, and not only to co-pilots.
I find it important to give a briefing, not only to make shure everything is set up but also to let the other guy know what you intend to do. If the plan does not suit the Captain, he can then make this clear while there is time to discuss and not during the approach.
Anyway, as far as I know, a briefing is not optional.
This realy starts to bother me and I think I should have a talk with the safety department about it.
Does anyone have simular experiences, or am I the only one.
It is not uncommon for the captain to start yawning just after you ask him if he is ready for the briefing. I do say him on purpose because it did not happen to me yet with a female captain.
Although this subtle gesture does indicate that he would rather prefer the co-pilot not to do a briefing, they just accept the fact it is briefing time and let me do a brief. I do try to keep the briefing short and to the point, anyway it does happen with captains with whom I never flew before, so it could not be a reaction like "there we go again".
Now what bothers me is that some captains plainly say that they don't want a briefing. You are flying, do as you like. Oddly though, it is them that start to intervene with your plan if it does not fit theirs. For example if you ask for flaps, reply is too early only to find yourself fast and above glide 2 minutes later. Or you plan a visual with a 3 mile final, and they force you to turn at 2 miles and guess what you end up high again.
On one or two occasions, after being told that a briefing is not neccessary, I do one silently for myself only to find that the ILS was not tuned. Although I do agree that the setup should be done correctly before the briefing, the briefing would be a last opportunity to catch something like that. And it does happen that you forrgot something, and not only to co-pilots.
I find it important to give a briefing, not only to make shure everything is set up but also to let the other guy know what you intend to do. If the plan does not suit the Captain, he can then make this clear while there is time to discuss and not during the approach.
Anyway, as far as I know, a briefing is not optional.
This realy starts to bother me and I think I should have a talk with the safety department about it.
Does anyone have simular experiences, or am I the only one.
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anyway it does happen with captains with whom I never flew before
The ultimate weapon when faced with 'no that's too early' etc is to say "you have control"
Do these 'Captains' brief you for their approaches?
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"you have control"
are you possibly exhibiting a 'boredom capability' during the flight? Will you have done a departure brief?
Do these 'Captains' brief you for their approaches?
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It is not uncommon for the captain to start yawning just after you ask him if he is ready for the briefing.
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the same rule applies for the departure briefing.
)Seriously, I think you either have some very odd Captains or you have a known reputation for boring, lifeless and largely irrelevant briefings - which was what I asked in the 'first part'. I once flew with a Captain who thoroughly (I mean thoroughly....) briefed the whole procedural ILS for R26 at EGKK - which of course is almost never flown, and what we actually flew bore no resemblance to the brief - at least I think not, as I was asleep by the "Mayfield at 4000ft " bit.
There is an (apocryphal?) story of an endless (20 minute) arrival brief at a 'simple' airfield on a 3 crew a/c, followed by "any questions", whereupon hairy engineer slid his seat forward and said "yeah - do you realise we have just flown 165 ***ing miles since you started wittering?"
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approach briefings on multi-sector days......
It is a good point for bringing up. Keeping the other guy interested during the "brief" is a hard thing to do if your going back to the same airfield more than once a day.
I always try to brief the picture in front of us instead of jst reading off the plate, gets some of the guys I fly with to interact with your speel and get them asking questions.
Some guys do want a brief, some dont, think it jst depends on the other member of your crew on the day.
Find a solution to this tho, be sure to PM me!
Happy landings
It is a good point for bringing up. Keeping the other guy interested during the "brief" is a hard thing to do if your going back to the same airfield more than once a day.
I always try to brief the picture in front of us instead of jst reading off the plate, gets some of the guys I fly with to interact with your speel and get them asking questions.
Some guys do want a brief, some dont, think it jst depends on the other member of your crew on the day.
Find a solution to this tho, be sure to PM me!
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Unfortunately there's a common misconception that a briefing constitutes reading the STAR and approach plate in their entirety out loud. This can be incredibly dull. Whilst I don't condone not performing briefings (as that is tipping one's toe in the water of Lake Gash) it is p**s poor CRM if you can't keep your mate interested. Tell me what speed you're going to fly the downwind leg if you're getting vectors. Tell me when you're going to ask for flap and where in the pattern. Please don't read the departure performance emergency turn in its entire complexity. "Climb straight ahead to 2.7 DME, then turn left to the Alpha Bravo Charlie VOR to enter a holding pattern inbound track 157 with right turns blah blah blah......" Anyone can read it word for word; how about getting realistic? How are you going to remember all that guff during the pressures of an engine failure? Would it not reassure the Captain of your ability if you demonstrated your understanding of the crucial parts of the manoeuvre to "At 2.7 DME we turn left back to the overhead to the VOR which I've got tuned on nav box 1, then liaise with ATC and hold if we have to."
Personally if someone briefs me using their own words and not that of the plates it shows me they have an understanding of what they're doing and are not just reading out a shopping list.
Personally if someone briefs me using their own words and not that of the plates it shows me they have an understanding of what they're doing and are not just reading out a shopping list.
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I do understand that you should not give a long and boring briefing, it should be effective and to the point but I think that is not the problem here. If you ask someone you have never flown with before if he is ready for the departure briefing, and he says "no need for a briefing, standard" than I don't think it is out of boredom avoidance .
I do understand that you make a very short briefing at places you go regularly, I do that as well if the captain agrees and cover only the main points. But I don't like it when you go somewere for the first time and are told a briefing is not neccesary.
Incidently, these guy's tend to have their own procedures and ways of working which is not realy considered standard by the book. Although it does work, sometimes surprisingly well, it makes it more difficult for the other guy to know what he is doing certainly if it was not briefed.
Anyway, there are only a few guys who work that way luckily.
.I do understand that you make a very short briefing at places you go regularly, I do that as well if the captain agrees and cover only the main points. But I don't like it when you go somewere for the first time and are told a briefing is not neccesary.
Incidently, these guy's tend to have their own procedures and ways of working which is not realy considered standard by the book. Although it does work, sometimes surprisingly well, it makes it more difficult for the other guy to know what he is doing certainly if it was not briefed.
Anyway, there are only a few guys who work that way luckily.
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i also have similar experiences with some captains :
- captains not interested in a brief
- captains who always like to intervene when I fly (over little things that do not matter)
- captains who have their own unique procedures and enforce it on me
I do not enjoy it but I do not know what to really do about it.
Sometimes its best just to keep the peace and just adapt to the Captains style, whatever it is.
Some of these captains would be seriously insulted if an FO was to ever query them, no matter how diplomatic you are. This could make your day a lot more difficult.
One very difficult captain with a very bad reputation amongst the FO's told me once that he won't respect an FO unless the FO respects him. To respect him is to let him do what he wants and not every say anything. He will make your day very difficult if you don't respect him.
I know this is poor CRM however I want to enjoy my job and not have some fellow next to me give me a hard time all day long.
If this particular captain does not want a brief, then I won't do one, but I will still brief myself (as both I and others have also been caught out before by not doing a brief).
All I can do really is watch and learn and try and not to be like them when I become a captain.
- captains not interested in a brief
- captains who always like to intervene when I fly (over little things that do not matter)
- captains who have their own unique procedures and enforce it on me
I do not enjoy it but I do not know what to really do about it.
Sometimes its best just to keep the peace and just adapt to the Captains style, whatever it is.
Some of these captains would be seriously insulted if an FO was to ever query them, no matter how diplomatic you are. This could make your day a lot more difficult.
One very difficult captain with a very bad reputation amongst the FO's told me once that he won't respect an FO unless the FO respects him. To respect him is to let him do what he wants and not every say anything. He will make your day very difficult if you don't respect him.
I know this is poor CRM however I want to enjoy my job and not have some fellow next to me give me a hard time all day long.
If this particular captain does not want a brief, then I won't do one, but I will still brief myself (as both I and others have also been caught out before by not doing a brief).
All I can do really is watch and learn and try and not to be like them when I become a captain.
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Tricky one really.
The most important to me is the MSA and outside 25nm the safety altitude/mora. Then airfield Elev, obstructions/warnings, FAF, MDA/DA for whatever the type/cat of app and missed approach altitude and R/W track. This should be carried out after both crew members have had a look over the charts, for the expected approach. Try and brief, 5 or 6 important points including the above. That is about my limit.
Much more than that one's mind may wonder a little. However complacency is the one that may trap you, especially on many flights into and out of the same airport.
The PF, when carrying out the approach should be left to get on with it. Intervention should only be considered for safety and/or a MA is in the making.
The most important to me is the MSA and outside 25nm the safety altitude/mora. Then airfield Elev, obstructions/warnings, FAF, MDA/DA for whatever the type/cat of app and missed approach altitude and R/W track. This should be carried out after both crew members have had a look over the charts, for the expected approach. Try and brief, 5 or 6 important points including the above. That is about my limit.
Much more than that one's mind may wonder a little. However complacency is the one that may trap you, especially on many flights into and out of the same airport.
The PF, when carrying out the approach should be left to get on with it. Intervention should only be considered for safety and/or a MA is in the making.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 9th Sep 2010 at 04:32.
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Whatever the reasoning, I do not understand why it is so difficult to listen to the other guy for 2 minutes. After having flown a few hours, is it realy that difficult to even pretend that you are slightly interrested for 2 minutes.
To me this shows disrespect for the other guy, how would the captain react if he asks the FO if he is ready for a briefing and the FO replies that he is not interrested.
Everybody knows that most accidents happen during APP and DEP, so I think it is important, also for the captain, to know beforehand what the other guy is planning to do.
But maybee I am just being too much safety minded which might be because in the past I have lost some friends in aircraft accidents where busting certain safety rules was forced on them.
To me this shows disrespect for the other guy, how would the captain react if he asks the FO if he is ready for a briefing and the FO replies that he is not interrested.
Everybody knows that most accidents happen during APP and DEP, so I think it is important, also for the captain, to know beforehand what the other guy is planning to do.
But maybee I am just being too much safety minded which might be because in the past I have lost some friends in aircraft accidents where busting certain safety rules was forced on them.
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I was teached to use 3M briefings:
Method - (ILS/V/D,NDB- tuned or not, courses set)
Minimums ( set or not)
Missed appr (briefly, initial climb height and first turn direction), if nasty airport with difficult missed appr, then verify that missed is drawn in MFD.
Plus some sort of important information for me (if unlogical STAR alt/speed restrictions, out of our profile, flap/gear extension points and readiness for visual) and thats all. Say, 30 seconds at most. Generally, nobody ever objected when I'll do it out loud.
Method - (ILS/V/D,NDB- tuned or not, courses set)
Minimums ( set or not)
Missed appr (briefly, initial climb height and first turn direction), if nasty airport with difficult missed appr, then verify that missed is drawn in MFD.
Plus some sort of important information for me (if unlogical STAR alt/speed restrictions, out of our profile, flap/gear extension points and readiness for visual) and thats all. Say, 30 seconds at most. Generally, nobody ever objected when I'll do it out loud.
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Originally Posted by bart2
how would the captain react if he asks the FO if he is ready for a briefing and the FO replies that he is not interrested.
Originally Posted by bart2
Quote:
Do these 'Captains' brief you for their approaches?
No, or very very briefly.
Do these 'Captains' brief you for their approaches?
No, or very very briefly.
When 'offered' a briefing on a 'familiar airfield' (base?) arrival by a 'known quantity' for the second or third time on a trip line I have been known to say - 'no thanks - just any pertinent points where you might surprise me, including autobrake and planned exit, and let's use the time to review the g/a procedure/flap failure etc etc'
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So I understand that a majority of people do not find it "not done" not to give a briefing, even if you have never flown together and have never bin to the place before. Ok, maybee I should get used to it then.
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I cannot work my way through all the negatives there() so where did you deduce
PS Hope you don't 'brief' like that...................
) so where did you deduce
So I understand that a majority of people do not find it "not done" not to give a briefing, even if you have never flown together and have never bin to the place before.
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Well that's how I interpret the sum of previous experience and posted reactions.
Anyway, This is quite a boring subject
so if you guys don't mind I'd like to end this little exchange of minds here.
Greetz,
Anyway, This is quite a boring subject
so if you guys don't mind I'd like to end this little exchange of minds here.Greetz,
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My experience of captains is that when it is their brief they expect you to listen intently, then when it is your turn to brief they always manage to look disinterested and carry on with other things, like gaze out of the window at the passengers boarding, or updating the FMS etc etc. A total disregard for the F/O in my mind.
Coffin Corner,
I don't know if you are a FO but it seems so. If the captain appears uninterest a good idea would be to put a small mistake in your briefing to see if he really does not pay attention.
I am not flght crew, but I sympathise with you regarding your superior not paying attention.
Rwy in Sight
I don't know if you are a FO but it seems so. If the captain appears uninterest a good idea would be to put a small mistake in your briefing to see if he really does not pay attention.
I am not flght crew, but I sympathise with you regarding your superior not paying attention.
Rwy in Sight