Polish Presidential Flight Crash Thread
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It's phone conversation I belive.
9:41:12 Krasn. Control approach he will do, definitely, by his minina. But we have no his minima, no... nothing.
9:41:19 Krasn. No, no, no, definitely... I mean what minimum we can descend him, what altitude.
9:41:28 Krasn. Airfield is 100 by 1, I can't make it worse.
9:41:33 Krasn. Right.
9:41:34 Krasn. So ok, if it came here, control approach he will perform, I only want to know about fuel, how can he go after one approach and where to divert him.
9:41:19 Krasn. No, no, no, definitely... I mean what minimum we can descend him, what altitude.
9:41:28 Krasn. Airfield is 100 by 1, I can't make it worse.
9:41:33 Krasn. Right.
9:41:34 Krasn. So ok, if it came here, control approach he will perform, I only want to know about fuel, how can he go after one approach and where to divert him.
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Ptkay
Yes, but I will disagree with that statement in that context. One reason being that, whether we like it or not, we always are at some sort of a war. That war was war between competent people and political puppets – perhaps the ugliest one of all. For a moment there it seemed like there was a strong political will in Poland to forever quarrel Poles and Russians just so our political puppets can score some points.
Second reason is that the crew: Blasik, Protasiuk, and so has shown they did not have skills necessary for fighting any kind of war. If Blasik felt like flying suicide mission for Kaczynski, he had a right to do it, solo with Kaczynski. But, he did not have a right to volunteer the other 90+ people for that suicide mission and keep them in the dark about it. I kind of doubt anyone else wanted to go on such mission.
What Blasik did was a crime – he was completely unqualified to command the Tu-154. Whatever procedures the crew had, right or wrong, they practiced them and flew the plane according to them, and thus had a chance to fly that plane safely if they were making calls. Blasik did not practice on Tu-154. Therefore he was not competent to assume command of that flight. Any real army would now strip Blasik of his rank and all honors. Not for theatrics but to remind others what the whole damn game is supposed to be about.
If the crew were real soldiers, they would have walked off that plane right on the tarmac. They did not. Therefore, they also volunteered the passengers for what clearly was and became a suicide mission.
- What was the name of the mission?
- To save a dying politician by means of emotional dog and pony show.
- Blasik's fate was tied to Kaczynski because with someone else at the top he would instantly loose his job because, by wide consent, he was unqualified for it, which even prior to Smolensk has cost quite a few lives.
- The crew was not strong enough to pass that test, and they flanked it – right there on that tarmac.
Unfortunately sometimes the virtues of the wartime are the biggest sins in the peacetime.
Second reason is that the crew: Blasik, Protasiuk, and so has shown they did not have skills necessary for fighting any kind of war. If Blasik felt like flying suicide mission for Kaczynski, he had a right to do it, solo with Kaczynski. But, he did not have a right to volunteer the other 90+ people for that suicide mission and keep them in the dark about it. I kind of doubt anyone else wanted to go on such mission.
What Blasik did was a crime – he was completely unqualified to command the Tu-154. Whatever procedures the crew had, right or wrong, they practiced them and flew the plane according to them, and thus had a chance to fly that plane safely if they were making calls. Blasik did not practice on Tu-154. Therefore he was not competent to assume command of that flight. Any real army would now strip Blasik of his rank and all honors. Not for theatrics but to remind others what the whole damn game is supposed to be about.
If the crew were real soldiers, they would have walked off that plane right on the tarmac. They did not. Therefore, they also volunteered the passengers for what clearly was and became a suicide mission.
- What was the name of the mission?
- To save a dying politician by means of emotional dog and pony show.
- Blasik's fate was tied to Kaczynski because with someone else at the top he would instantly loose his job because, by wide consent, he was unqualified for it, which even prior to Smolensk has cost quite a few lives.
- The crew was not strong enough to pass that test, and they flanked it – right there on that tarmac.
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Honestly, who the are you guys to say "CASE CLOSED" after reading an onet.pl article? I guess you know all the facts then. I bet the investigators don't even have all the facts.
I don't know all the facts. I don't have all the information at my disposal. I am not a crash investigator. I am not involved in the investigation, either. I doubt any of you are. Given this, I also refuse to speculate, even if just out of respect to the dead crew, as well as passengers.
I will wait till the final report comes out before pointing fingers. (For me given the lackings proven to exist in the MAK report, I don't consider it complete) And even then would not do it, but would rather see what needs to be done so this does not happen again, as anything else is the opposite of constructive. Don't let your political feelings (which are evidenced in the way you speak of Kaczynski) get the better of you, at least until it is proven you have reason to. As far as I am aware at the moment you do not.
P.S - Suicide mission? I doubt anybody on the airplane wanted to die that day. If things were done that should not have been done, there is something that caused them to be done in that particular way. Those are the things that need to be looked at, and why they happened, and ensure they do not happen again. It may have been a training issue, it may have been a weather issue, it may have been a combination of mis-understandings in certain areas, whatever it was, there was a reason for why it was done, and something in the system that caused them. It was CERTAINLY, not as a suicide mission, as you so nicely put it.
I don't know all the facts. I don't have all the information at my disposal. I am not a crash investigator. I am not involved in the investigation, either. I doubt any of you are. Given this, I also refuse to speculate, even if just out of respect to the dead crew, as well as passengers.
I will wait till the final report comes out before pointing fingers. (For me given the lackings proven to exist in the MAK report, I don't consider it complete) And even then would not do it, but would rather see what needs to be done so this does not happen again, as anything else is the opposite of constructive. Don't let your political feelings (which are evidenced in the way you speak of Kaczynski) get the better of you, at least until it is proven you have reason to. As far as I am aware at the moment you do not.
P.S - Suicide mission? I doubt anybody on the airplane wanted to die that day. If things were done that should not have been done, there is something that caused them to be done in that particular way. Those are the things that need to be looked at, and why they happened, and ensure they do not happen again. It may have been a training issue, it may have been a weather issue, it may have been a combination of mis-understandings in certain areas, whatever it was, there was a reason for why it was done, and something in the system that caused them. It was CERTAINLY, not as a suicide mission, as you so nicely put it.
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Originally Posted by 767PL
Honestly, who the are you guys to say "CASE CLOSED" after reading an onet.pl article? I guess you know all the facts then. I bet the investigators don't even have all the facts.
why don't they publish the conversation between Blasik and Protasiuk prior
to departure at briefing, where Protasiuk refused to fly, and Blasik ordered
him to do so.
They, involuntarily published today at the press conference the CC film
where you can see Blasik reporting to Kaczynski.
So whose GA call it was supposed to be?
Why the silence in the cockpit?
What they were waiting for?
Answer yourself.
I rest my case.
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B767PL - by saying "case closed" I didn't mean "I close it" (it's obviously beyond my power) or indeed that I think we have reached the solution. It was a way of saying nothing good will now come of it, due to too much political involvement.
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Ptkay
Where do you have this information? Was it published somewhere? I want to know. I have not seen this anywhere yet. And I am being very serious. With all the garbage surrounding this crash, I have not paid the attention to it I normally would. Please post link with factual quotes, recordings, or anything that proves this true.
Silence on flight deck after go around call? I can't tell you that, and you can't tell me that. Yesterday Klich mentioned that it may have something to do with the TOGA button on the 154, as well as that it uses the ILS as an aid, and since that was not present, it may not have functioned the way it should have. How, I don't know, just a quote from him yesterday in an interview.
Bottom line, they are still running tests, on various theories and trying to get down to the very last detail as to the what , where, and most importantly the why. And I hope they get down to the very bottom truth, whatever it may be. All I am saying is it is too early, there are still too many unanswered questions, to go ahead and say "case closed".
Silence on flight deck after go around call? I can't tell you that, and you can't tell me that. Yesterday Klich mentioned that it may have something to do with the TOGA button on the 154, as well as that it uses the ILS as an aid, and since that was not present, it may not have functioned the way it should have. How, I don't know, just a quote from him yesterday in an interview.
Bottom line, they are still running tests, on various theories and trying to get down to the very last detail as to the what , where, and most importantly the why. And I hope they get down to the very bottom truth, whatever it may be. All I am saying is it is too early, there are still too many unanswered questions, to go ahead and say "case closed".
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B767PL
Any time you have any large piece of machinery or system operated by more than one person, it has to be CRYSTAL CLEAR who makes the calls and that someone must be capable of making the right calls. Any time that rule is broken, people's lives are put at risk directly proportional to how dangerous the machine is.
Anyone who does not understand what it is about – please watch two inexperienced people say try to anchor a boat without agreeing first who makes the calls. The damage done in this case is wet people, lost anchors, and sometimes messed up boat or lost fingers. Large machines and more people – much bigger potential for disaster. Now, add alcohol to that mix. Add a puppet who decides to take over for his own benefit... Add people who feel they have to go along but would rather not...
How much more do you need for me to explain that the crew volunteered for a suicide mission when they did not walk off the plane at the tarmac. I am rather disappointed that this has to be pointed out that way.
But yes, I am going to shut up in shame now.
P.S - Suicide mission? I doubt anybody on the airplane wanted to die that day. If things were done that should not have been done, there is something that caused them to be done in that particular way. Those are the things that need to be looked at, and why they happened, and ensure they do not happen again. It may have been a training issue, it may have been a weather issue, it may have been a combination of mis-understandings in certain areas, whatever it was, there was a reason for why it was done, and something in the system that caused them. It was CERTAINLY, not as a suicide mission, as you so nicely put it.
Anyone who does not understand what it is about – please watch two inexperienced people say try to anchor a boat without agreeing first who makes the calls. The damage done in this case is wet people, lost anchors, and sometimes messed up boat or lost fingers. Large machines and more people – much bigger potential for disaster. Now, add alcohol to that mix. Add a puppet who decides to take over for his own benefit... Add people who feel they have to go along but would rather not...
How much more do you need for me to explain that the crew volunteered for a suicide mission when they did not walk off the plane at the tarmac. I am rather disappointed that this has to be pointed out that way.
But yes, I am going to shut up in shame now.
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The short resume from what I read from ATC transcript. ATC Smolensk Severny have NO info on this flight. No dept time, no minima, no fuel, no alternate... It fell on them "from the sky" when they have no doubt that their main duty will be to find him alternate airdrome and that he newer dared to go below 100m.
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criss
You are correct. This has turned into a big political pissing match, with all sides involved. But hopefully, and I believe, that the people doing the job investigating this further, are not involved, and will post an objective, and complete report, with all details that they could muster once this is all said and done. The ultimate cause of the crash seems to have been determined, but the contributing factors, will be very important for this event not to repeat itself, at least in the PAF, where things are apparently not as they should be.
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Tower's voice:
10.40.39 - "Distance 2 km, on glideslope, on centreline"
10.40.53 - "Level off, level off!!!"
10.41.02 - "Go around, go around... go around!!!"
10.41.48 - "Fire brigade to them!"
10.42.45 - "Passed inner marker, left of centreline..." (about place of crash)
10.40.39 - "Distance 2 km, on glideslope, on centreline"
10.40.53 - "Level off, level off!!!"
10.41.02 - "Go around, go around... go around!!!"
10.41.48 - "Fire brigade to them!"
10.42.45 - "Passed inner marker, left of centreline..." (about place of crash)
You are correct. This has turned into a big political pissing match, with all sides involved. But hopefully, and I believe, that the people doing the job investigating this further, are not involved, and will post an objective, and complete report, with all details that they could muster once this is all said and done. The ultimate cause of the crash seems to have been determined, but the contributing factors, will be very important for this event not to repeat itself, at least in the PAF, where things are apparently not as they should be.
I care little about the politics or what gets printed in the news for the public to be satisfied, even if it's different between either country.
The very few who are in a position to make this less likely to occur in the future are the only thing significant to the aviation matters.
Come to think of it, I can't even think who is in a position to learn from this and what more do they need to know
In the Ron Brown B737 crash quite a few years ago the lessons learned were promulgated among the few who needed it. In this case, while I believe that there are some open minded people on both sides, I don't see how the public is ever gonna be convinced unless by political utterings.
So I'm quite content for anything that satisfies the public for a win win on either side and let's get past this.
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5 APUs captain,
10:37:42 - You tell him GO AROUND, that is, GO AROUND and that's all. Then it's up to him, if he had make the decision, than let him decide for himself...
10:37:42 - You tell him GO AROUND, that is, GO AROUND and that's all. Then it's up to him, if he had make the decision, than let him decide for himself...
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Russian MAK has decided to publish a transcription of Russian ATC voice recordings
rather interesting reading... but available in Russian only..
http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigat.../open_micr.pdf
Just to summarize - very disorganized
rather interesting reading... but available in Russian only..
http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigat.../open_micr.pdf
Just to summarize - very disorganized
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one bright side
How far are we from the fame of the Polish pilots of the Battle of Britain.
The Polish Fighter Pilot (no) Joke
Note 1:- Readers in the UK will no doubt remember this as the joke that caused Des O'Conner's TV show to be cancelled, after Stan Boardman told it live, on prime-time television - with Des looking on, horrified.
Note 2: American readers, who are accustomed to "Polish" jokes, may be expecting this to be an anti-Polish joke which depicts Polish people naive.
It's not.
In fact, the stereotype of Poles in this country is probably very different to that of the US, since the main thing that people think of here - when they think of Poles - are all the Polish airman who fought for the RAF in the Battle of Britain, and the Polish paratroopers who fought at Arnhem.
Note 3: When telling this joke, it's best to drag it out as long as you can. But I've shortened it a bit here. (It's also better told than written).
The Joke
A BBC TV journalist is interviewing a elderly former Polish fighter pilot.
Interviewer: So Mr Stanczewski, I understand that in 1943 you shot down five German aircraft in a single engagement. Could you tell us what happened?
Polish Fighter Pilot: Well we were flying at 10,000 feet when we spotted five Fokkers flying along below us. So we dived down and I aimed at one of the Fokkers and fired a burst from my machine guns right into him and he exploded. Then I saw that one of the Fokkers was on my tail, so I pulled round in a loop and got behind him, and fired and he went down on fire.
I looked around and saw two more Fokkers attacking my squadron leader, so I slipped in behind them, and fired, and that was another Fokker going down in flames. The other Fokker tried to get away from me, but I got right up behind him, and blasted him with my machine guns and he turned over and exploded. There was only one of the Fokkers left now, and he was trying to get away, but I flew up behind him, shot bang bang, bang, bang - and he blew up too!
Interviewer: I should point out for the benefit of the viewers at home, that the Fokker was a type of German aircraft used in the war.
Polish Fighter Pilot: Oh no, no, no,
these Fokkers were all Messerschmitts!
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- A nie jest tak, że Rosjanie próbują generałem Błasikiem odwrócić uwagę od swoich win i mówiąc o alkoholu we krwi generała chcieli z niego zrobić kozła ofiarnego?
- Ale pan Andrzej Seremet, prokurator generalny potwierdził wiadomość o alkoholu we krwi gen. Błasika. To jest o tyle istotne, że gen. Błasik nie był zwykłym pasażerem, ale faktycznym dowódcą Tu-154. Przejął dowodzenie i zadokumentował to przy trapie samolotu na lotnisku w Warszawie składając meldunek prezydentowi Kaczyńskiemu o gotowości załogi do wykonania zadania. W ten bezprecedensowy sposób pozbawił kompetencji dowódcę maszyny i w decydującej fazie lotu zasiadł w kokpicie. Gen. Błasik chciał zapewne w oczach prezydenta być tym, który dowiezie Lecha Kaczyńskiego do Katynia bez względu na złe warunki atmosferyczne.
dzisiaj, 19:10
Jacek Nizinkiewicz / Onet.pl
- Ale pan Andrzej Seremet, prokurator generalny potwierdził wiadomość o alkoholu we krwi gen. Błasika. To jest o tyle istotne, że gen. Błasik nie był zwykłym pasażerem, ale faktycznym dowódcą Tu-154. Przejął dowodzenie i zadokumentował to przy trapie samolotu na lotnisku w Warszawie składając meldunek prezydentowi Kaczyńskiemu o gotowości załogi do wykonania zadania. W ten bezprecedensowy sposób pozbawił kompetencji dowódcę maszyny i w decydującej fazie lotu zasiadł w kokpicie. Gen. Błasik chciał zapewne w oczach prezydenta być tym, który dowiezie Lecha Kaczyńskiego do Katynia bez względu na złe warunki atmosferyczne.
dzisiaj, 19:10
Jacek Nizinkiewicz / Onet.pl
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Ptkay
You for real? Source plz
If Polish investigators are so brave to comment the Russian phone calls,
why don't they publish the conversation between Blasik and Protasiuk prior
to departure at briefing, where Protasiuk refused to fly, and Blasik ordered
him to do so.
why don't they publish the conversation between Blasik and Protasiuk prior
to departure at briefing, where Protasiuk refused to fly, and Blasik ordered
him to do so.
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C'mon
C'mon folks, have some mercy and don't quote ex-communist prime minister (though he was prime minister after the democracy came to Poland), who has no knowledge on the subject whatsoever, as a credible source of information!
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janeczku
I have heard zero credible information on such a scenario thus far. Seems like a jab at sp. Gen. Blasik more then anything else.
I imagine if it was true, then it would be all over the media, not more then 1 minute later.
I imagine if it was true, then it would be all over the media, not more then 1 minute later.
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I've also read all the talks' transcripts published by MAK today on their site. In three parts - open microphone - what it recored, telephone talks, and radio exchange.
It is in Russian because that is the original (in English only where Russians or Polish repeat something in English, numbers, for better understanding.)
Much swearing, this was not cut out by MAC.
Mess, as pointed out above, Severny controllers first trying
- to figure out who from Moscow "in charge" of the Polish plane is able to call them on-board direct. Urging them to tell the Polish plane they shouldn't even fly towards Smolensk, given the sudden fog that blanketed the aerodrome.
- controllers phoning meteo station in Smolensk asking what is it sudenly with the fog and what's their prediction, will the weather clear up soon or what. Disagreeing with the meteo re the actual visibility (with much swearing about the meteo), they telling the aerodrome visibility 800 metres, the aerodrome telling meteo back "Like xxx it is, 400 metres (then 300)"xxxx can't be even 300 I can hardly see here ? something 200 metres away" "That meteo xxxxx", etc.
- calling security and sending someone to have security get out of the runway, swearing about security that run across it or stepping onto it (before Yak landed)
- sending someone to install then aim the lights, then checking they are working, then correcting them, all in much haste (before Yak), setting the lights the fog mode day-time.
- speaking in parallel with Yak and IL both approaching, telling the IL that the Yak will be the first one, and (it seems to me), delaying IL a bit in air, not to deal with two at once
- all this is inter-mitted by genuine amazement and comments re how quickly the fog has fallen, and what the hell to do now with the whole lot of planes (I hope any one who reads these transcripts will forget forever about "tricky fog planning by Russians in advance" o) They've clearly fallen into a state of unpredicted emergency, no expectations nil they had of the fog on that day
- phoning other city parts whether the fog is clearing away off on the other city end, any ease-ing of fog situation observed or not ?
- going to much pain in never-ending phone talks to figure out to what airport to send "the plane with the main president" when it does a flight to 100 metres, for "we have to know what to tell them right after they do the trial approach - otherwise the Poles will be what? eternally flying above us (it's no good)"
There were three stages in the condition of the ground control it seems to me. In the first part they tried their best to get rid of the "plane with the main president" in hope that someone senior is able to phone them on-board and talk them away from the very idea of even flying to Smolensk direction.
In the second stage, when they got no clear reply back whether the Polish plane is convinced they shouldn't go to Smolensk, but the ground control only got confirmation the Polish plane has been warne in air that Smolensk is in deep fog - they tried to find out a spare airport for the Polish plane. Were confirmed it is most likely to be Domodedovo, that they are to tell Polish plane after the trial approach at once to contact the central control centre and they will take care of them, modt likely to Domodedovo.
The third stage began when they saw a plane "on the way to Moscow; may be the Poles, no can not be, hope it's not them, oh damn it it's them, they are coming to Smolensk, after all, so nothing to do."
Decided between themselves to check their fuel, if they've got enough to go to spare aerodrome, decided between themselves to warn them of lights system how it is installed, and then the Polish plane said "Korsazh" there were no time anymore to agree between themselves of anything.
It is in Russian because that is the original (in English only where Russians or Polish repeat something in English, numbers, for better understanding.)
Much swearing, this was not cut out by MAC.
Mess, as pointed out above, Severny controllers first trying
- to figure out who from Moscow "in charge" of the Polish plane is able to call them on-board direct. Urging them to tell the Polish plane they shouldn't even fly towards Smolensk, given the sudden fog that blanketed the aerodrome.
- controllers phoning meteo station in Smolensk asking what is it sudenly with the fog and what's their prediction, will the weather clear up soon or what. Disagreeing with the meteo re the actual visibility (with much swearing about the meteo), they telling the aerodrome visibility 800 metres, the aerodrome telling meteo back "Like xxx it is, 400 metres (then 300)"xxxx can't be even 300 I can hardly see here ? something 200 metres away" "That meteo xxxxx", etc.
- calling security and sending someone to have security get out of the runway, swearing about security that run across it or stepping onto it (before Yak landed)
- sending someone to install then aim the lights, then checking they are working, then correcting them, all in much haste (before Yak), setting the lights the fog mode day-time.
- speaking in parallel with Yak and IL both approaching, telling the IL that the Yak will be the first one, and (it seems to me), delaying IL a bit in air, not to deal with two at once
- all this is inter-mitted by genuine amazement and comments re how quickly the fog has fallen, and what the hell to do now with the whole lot of planes (I hope any one who reads these transcripts will forget forever about "tricky fog planning by Russians in advance" o) They've clearly fallen into a state of unpredicted emergency, no expectations nil they had of the fog on that day
- phoning other city parts whether the fog is clearing away off on the other city end, any ease-ing of fog situation observed or not ?
- going to much pain in never-ending phone talks to figure out to what airport to send "the plane with the main president" when it does a flight to 100 metres, for "we have to know what to tell them right after they do the trial approach - otherwise the Poles will be what? eternally flying above us (it's no good)"
There were three stages in the condition of the ground control it seems to me. In the first part they tried their best to get rid of the "plane with the main president" in hope that someone senior is able to phone them on-board and talk them away from the very idea of even flying to Smolensk direction.
In the second stage, when they got no clear reply back whether the Polish plane is convinced they shouldn't go to Smolensk, but the ground control only got confirmation the Polish plane has been warne in air that Smolensk is in deep fog - they tried to find out a spare airport for the Polish plane. Were confirmed it is most likely to be Domodedovo, that they are to tell Polish plane after the trial approach at once to contact the central control centre and they will take care of them, modt likely to Domodedovo.
The third stage began when they saw a plane "on the way to Moscow; may be the Poles, no can not be, hope it's not them, oh damn it it's them, they are coming to Smolensk, after all, so nothing to do."
Decided between themselves to check their fuel, if they've got enough to go to spare aerodrome, decided between themselves to warn them of lights system how it is installed, and then the Polish plane said "Korsazh" there were no time anymore to agree between themselves of anything.