Polish Presidential Flight Crash Thread
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uuhhh... it's even worse than imagined or imaginable. I really hoped the FDR will show they tried to pull up but somehow failed.
Of course the Polish authorities try to blame the ATC or whatever/whoever. How do you admit the presidential flight was poorly prepared, the crew neither trained enough not pre-briefed enough, the regulations not followed and there was no-one to explain the real situation to the VIPs? Like what it means for the pilots when the flight is badly delayed. And that sometimes willpower just isn't sufficient to 'overcome' natural laws.
So sorry. As there is no suitable word anyway.
Of course the Polish authorities try to blame the ATC or whatever/whoever. How do you admit the presidential flight was poorly prepared, the crew neither trained enough not pre-briefed enough, the regulations not followed and there was no-one to explain the real situation to the VIPs? Like what it means for the pilots when the flight is badly delayed. And that sometimes willpower just isn't sufficient to 'overcome' natural laws.
So sorry. As there is no suitable word anyway.
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The last few posts are not exactly coherent when you read, even fast read, the full report.
As ever, there were a number of (human) factors acting towards a poor outcome. Traditional "break the chain" was required, but the pressures prevented it.
Unless there are blatant factual untruths in there, I cannot see the Poles have much to complain about.
If you want to get into the "blame game", then more than 1 individual bears responsibility. However, if you wanted an overall/principal cause, I would go for "Organisational Failure(s)" - that set the scene for the subsequent indiviudal errors.
NoD
As ever, there were a number of (human) factors acting towards a poor outcome. Traditional "break the chain" was required, but the pressures prevented it.
Unless there are blatant factual untruths in there, I cannot see the Poles have much to complain about.
If you want to get into the "blame game", then more than 1 individual bears responsibility. However, if you wanted an overall/principal cause, I would go for "Organisational Failure(s)" - that set the scene for the subsequent indiviudal errors.
NoD
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I guess a couple of thoughts/ideas gathered from various places would be in place:
1. altimeter change is claimed to be made by pilots to "shut out" TAWS calls.
2. pilots were probably looking out for VMC to land, so the callouts from 3rd crew member were probably their only reference to altitude; worth to notice they were made based on radio altimeter (so 100 was way below 100)
3. No reaction to go around is very similar to previous disaster - C295M at Miroslawiec in 2008 - going below clouds for visual again.
4. Russians do take a bit of blame from themselves, but only a BIT. After watching the video, all forums/comments from pilots is pretty much what I feel - they've got what they've asked for, unfortunately.
Best regards,
Adam
1. altimeter change is claimed to be made by pilots to "shut out" TAWS calls.
2. pilots were probably looking out for VMC to land, so the callouts from 3rd crew member were probably their only reference to altitude; worth to notice they were made based on radio altimeter (so 100 was way below 100)
3. No reaction to go around is very similar to previous disaster - C295M at Miroslawiec in 2008 - going below clouds for visual again.
4. Russians do take a bit of blame from themselves, but only a BIT. After watching the video, all forums/comments from pilots is pretty much what I feel - they've got what they've asked for, unfortunately.
Best regards,
Adam
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Actually Nigel I think that in this case there is only 1 person to blame...
The PIC. The moment he ignored the minimums he was at fault, further ignoring the terrain warnings just makes it worse. Unbelievably bad judgement...period.
The PIC. The moment he ignored the minimums he was at fault, further ignoring the terrain warnings just makes it worse. Unbelievably bad judgement...period.
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Just read the president's brother's outburst on the web. I feel very sorry for the crew but surely dealing with arseholes trying to tell you how to fly is par for the course. They should've rerouted.
Quotes from original accident thread:
11:00am 10th April 2010 (accident day)
11:30am 10th April 2010
Scary and sad how with some accidents speculation can hit the nail on the head just a few hours after the event...
11:00am 10th April 2010 (accident day)
Originally Posted by andrasz
...this may be the ultimate sad case of politicans meddling with airline/aircraft operations. I can very easily envision the scenario where there was enormous pressure on the crew (real or percieved) to complete the flight with marginal weather conditions to an airport with no precision approach. The high ranking person on board was not a particularly easy character to deal with...
Originally Posted by andrasz
...Latest reports say most of the Polish top brass were on board, including the Commander of the Air Force. This was a Polish Air Force aircraft, with military pilots... The first questions I would start asking after the CVR was listened to is who was sitting on the jumpseats...
Last edited by andrasz; 13th Jan 2011 at 09:09.
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Actually Nigel I think that in this case there is only 1 person to blame...
The PIC. The moment he ignored the minimums he was at fault, further ignoring the terrain warnings just makes it worse. Unbelievably bad judgement...period.
The PIC. The moment he ignored the minimums he was at fault, further ignoring the terrain warnings just makes it worse. Unbelievably bad judgement...period.
But I have another question: are those standby instruments that are mechanical rather than digital designed to "lock" their last state after crash event (like that attitude indicator)?
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Strange they are mentioning an elevated BAC in Gen. Blasiks blood as preliminary reports that I have read clearly stated that there is not enough evidence to provide any proof of this, thus it being inconclusive.
Also there is no proof that I have seen of there being any pressure on the flight crew to land the airplane from neither President Kaczynski, or Gen. Blasik.
To say otherwise is nothing but mere speculation at this point, yet it is included in this report. There are many questions to raise with this report, and they will be raised, and hopefully answered with time.
This entire investigation has turned into a mess, with both sides bickering back and fourth about authority as to what etc. etc.
The Government made a huge mistake by not pursuing with all means possible to take control of the investigation from the beginning, and now they are paying for it, without getting the cooperation from Russia they had hoped for, and been promised.
Surely there are many truths, but surely there are many more just as well.
I know I will go ahead and wait for the Polish report to be finalized and released as well, before making any final and definitive conclusions.
Also there is no proof that I have seen of there being any pressure on the flight crew to land the airplane from neither President Kaczynski, or Gen. Blasik.
To say otherwise is nothing but mere speculation at this point, yet it is included in this report. There are many questions to raise with this report, and they will be raised, and hopefully answered with time.
This entire investigation has turned into a mess, with both sides bickering back and fourth about authority as to what etc. etc.
The Government made a huge mistake by not pursuing with all means possible to take control of the investigation from the beginning, and now they are paying for it, without getting the cooperation from Russia they had hoped for, and been promised.
Surely there are many truths, but surely there are many more just as well.
I know I will go ahead and wait for the Polish report to be finalized and released as well, before making any final and definitive conclusions.
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If I understood the report correctly only the FO had the correct altitude info in from of him - the navigator was reading from the Rad alt and the captain's altimeter was mis-set, reading high. The FO made a half-assed attempt to go around but the autopilot did not disconnect so it made no difference.
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B767PL, you better put efforts into the next gov crew training and teach gov not to push pilots for stupid things. By doing that you will get a much better outcome comparing to bashing Russkies.
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vovachan, captain's mechanical altimeter with the correct QFE setting was in front of him right next to the incorrectly set electronic altimeter.
Last edited by dvv; 12th Jan 2011 at 21:24. Reason: hands/brain miscoordination
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CargoOne,
I am not disputing that training has not been an issue in the PAF. As far as pilots being pushed, there is no evidence that this had any place on board PF101 on the 10th of April of last year. That is just mere speculation at this point.
Those are very big issues, and I am quite aware of them, having some friends who are pilots for the Polish Air Force.
As far as bashing Ruskies goes ; allowing certain and pertinent issues and questions to go un-answered, and certain pertinent documents and information to go unreleased, as well as various meetings held with the exclusion of the Polish authority who is involved in the investigation on the Polish side. If to you raising and questioning these issues is "Ruski bashing", then I don't know what to tell you... unless I misunderstood what you meant by that statement, in which case disregard.
I am not disputing that training has not been an issue in the PAF. As far as pilots being pushed, there is no evidence that this had any place on board PF101 on the 10th of April of last year. That is just mere speculation at this point.
Those are very big issues, and I am quite aware of them, having some friends who are pilots for the Polish Air Force.
As far as bashing Ruskies goes ; allowing certain and pertinent issues and questions to go un-answered, and certain pertinent documents and information to go unreleased, as well as various meetings held with the exclusion of the Polish authority who is involved in the investigation on the Polish side. If to you raising and questioning these issues is "Ruski bashing", then I don't know what to tell you... unless I misunderstood what you meant by that statement, in which case disregard.
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B767PL
You got to be kidding, man! Either you're a FlightSimulator pilot or a joker.
There's no discussion here: under IMC a GPWS warning on any kind or aircraft call for an IMMEDIATE MANUAL GO AROUND!
No space for further discussions or interpretations, this PIC and his FO comitted manslaughter. They were plain assassins/suicides.
In respect of the innocent victims let's stop the useless bull**** here.
Please no more endless bla bla bla. Hopefully Polish Air force (or any other for that matter) give some decent training for their pilots.
Schifsko dobja!
There's no discussion here: under IMC a GPWS warning on any kind or aircraft call for an IMMEDIATE MANUAL GO AROUND!
No space for further discussions or interpretations, this PIC and his FO comitted manslaughter. They were plain assassins/suicides.
In respect of the innocent victims let's stop the useless bull**** here.
Please no more endless bla bla bla. Hopefully Polish Air force (or any other for that matter) give some decent training for their pilots.
Schifsko dobja!
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There's no discussion here: under IMC a GPWS warning on any kind or aircraft call for an IMMEDIATE MANUAL GO AROUND!
Last edited by Aviaservice; 12th Jan 2011 at 22:24.
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Actually Nigel I think that in this case there is only 1 person to blame...
The whole idea of regulatory oversight, CRM, SOPs, multi-crew etc. is that no one person can make an error of judgement and cause a serious accident.
We must be careful not to judge these individuals against a modern western airline culture and hang them on that basis
I'll put it another way... if you say the PIC is the only person to blame, you are effectively saying that now he is dead and buried, we can ignore the rest of the findings - we have removed the entire problem and so there will no no repetition.
My view is that the whole operation was so shambolic that an accident at some point was inevitable
The root cause of the accident went a long way "above" the cockpit crew... from the VIP flight organisation, the (lack of) SOPs, the inexperience etc. etc.
There's no discussion here: under IMC a GPWS warning on any kind or aircraft call for an IMMEDIATE MANUAL GO AROUND!
NoD
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fullforward
Some reading and comprehension please.
Where did I mention those two things? My comments were very general, and made about a variety of topics, and other factors previously spoken of in the crash that are or aren't included in the final report, that may or may not have been a contributing factor in the accident. There are still questions to be answered. THAT IS ALL. If you believe this crash is as cut and dry as ignoring a GPWS warning then maybe you are the flight simulator pilot
Don't put words in my mouth, I was not addressing either of the points you introduced.
Where did I mention those two things? My comments were very general, and made about a variety of topics, and other factors previously spoken of in the crash that are or aren't included in the final report, that may or may not have been a contributing factor in the accident. There are still questions to be answered. THAT IS ALL. If you believe this crash is as cut and dry as ignoring a GPWS warning then maybe you are the flight simulator pilot
Don't put words in my mouth, I was not addressing either of the points you introduced.
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The whole idea of regulatory oversight, CRM, SOPs, multi-crew etc. is that no one person can make an error of judgement and cause a serious accident.
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Pressure on crew
B767PL
Complete horse****. The transcript shows the pilot completely subject to political will of absolutely insane politician (aka main passenger) and his staff.
Also, what needs to be said, Protasiuk (PIC of flight to Smolensk) was about to retire and switch to being a civilian pilot. He probably did not want to go through years of court marshal like the previous pilot who refused Kaczynski's idiotic orders in a quite famous incident a few years back.
Critical to understanding the situation is knowing what was going on that flight to Georgia that MAK/IAC report only mentions.
Situation: Kaczynski decides to get to Tbilisi in support of Shakashvili who was in war with Russian troops at the moment. Approved flight plan calls for flying to Azeiberjan and then driving from there. In the middle of the flight, Kaczynski orders the pilot (Grzegorz Pietruczuk) to fly directly to Tbilisi. When he refuses, he orders a general on board (Krzysztof Zaleski) to give him written orders to fly directly to Tbilisi. He does that and the pilot still refuses, and at this point his direct superior (Tomasz Pietrzak) is called who supports the pilot.
Passengers: Apart from Kaczynski and his crew, presidents of Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are on board.
Some memorable quotes from that adventure:
Lech Kaczyński: Gentlemen, who is head of the armed forces?
PIC Grzegorz Pietruczuk: You, Mr. President.
Lech Kaczyński: If someone decides to be an officer, it should not be fearful.
General Krzysztof Zaleski: Please immediately execute the command of the President and perform the trip to airport in Tbilisi
PIC Grzegorz Pietruczuk: Georgia's airspace is covered by military operations, our aircraft "friend-or-foe" identification system is not compatible with such systems in the Russian aircrafts, with which we can not establish radio communications, because they work on different frequencies. We can be shot down by one of the parties to the conflict. Flight to Georgia is threatening to the life of the president and the safety of the airplane
Colonel Tomasz Pietrzak: It is impossible, because we have no diplomatic clearance, the airspace is likely owned by the Russians and we may end up being shot down. There is a war. Combat helicopters are in the air all around. These are the reasons for which we are unable to fly to Tbilisi.
Lech Kaczyński: If not you will command the flight to Tbilisi, when I come back, I will give you such hell. We have to fly and that's that.
http://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incydent_gruzi%C5%84ski
In the aftermath the pilot was court marshaled, cleared, and even got a medal from the opposition party, but, he had to look for another job.
So, please, people, do not embarrass Poland anymore by defending these IDIOTS. We should be happy that this complete MORON Kaczynski only killed 95 people in Smolensk instead of getting us into nuclear war after being shot down with other presidents on board who were completely unaware what that moron was doing.
I am not disputing that training has not been an issue in the PAF. As far as pilots being pushed, there is no evidence that this had any place on board PF101 on the 10th of April of last year. That is just mere speculation at this point.
Also, what needs to be said, Protasiuk (PIC of flight to Smolensk) was about to retire and switch to being a civilian pilot. He probably did not want to go through years of court marshal like the previous pilot who refused Kaczynski's idiotic orders in a quite famous incident a few years back.
Critical to understanding the situation is knowing what was going on that flight to Georgia that MAK/IAC report only mentions.
Situation: Kaczynski decides to get to Tbilisi in support of Shakashvili who was in war with Russian troops at the moment. Approved flight plan calls for flying to Azeiberjan and then driving from there. In the middle of the flight, Kaczynski orders the pilot (Grzegorz Pietruczuk) to fly directly to Tbilisi. When he refuses, he orders a general on board (Krzysztof Zaleski) to give him written orders to fly directly to Tbilisi. He does that and the pilot still refuses, and at this point his direct superior (Tomasz Pietrzak) is called who supports the pilot.
Passengers: Apart from Kaczynski and his crew, presidents of Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are on board.
Some memorable quotes from that adventure:
Lech Kaczyński: Gentlemen, who is head of the armed forces?
PIC Grzegorz Pietruczuk: You, Mr. President.
Lech Kaczyński: If someone decides to be an officer, it should not be fearful.
General Krzysztof Zaleski: Please immediately execute the command of the President and perform the trip to airport in Tbilisi
PIC Grzegorz Pietruczuk: Georgia's airspace is covered by military operations, our aircraft "friend-or-foe" identification system is not compatible with such systems in the Russian aircrafts, with which we can not establish radio communications, because they work on different frequencies. We can be shot down by one of the parties to the conflict. Flight to Georgia is threatening to the life of the president and the safety of the airplane
Colonel Tomasz Pietrzak: It is impossible, because we have no diplomatic clearance, the airspace is likely owned by the Russians and we may end up being shot down. There is a war. Combat helicopters are in the air all around. These are the reasons for which we are unable to fly to Tbilisi.
Lech Kaczyński: If not you will command the flight to Tbilisi, when I come back, I will give you such hell. We have to fly and that's that.
http://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incydent_gruzi%C5%84ski
In the aftermath the pilot was court marshaled, cleared, and even got a medal from the opposition party, but, he had to look for another job.
So, please, people, do not embarrass Poland anymore by defending these IDIOTS. We should be happy that this complete MORON Kaczynski only killed 95 people in Smolensk instead of getting us into nuclear war after being shot down with other presidents on board who were completely unaware what that moron was doing.
Last edited by SadPole; 13th Jan 2011 at 00:53. Reason: typos