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Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!

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Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!

Old 9th Dec 2007, 10:42
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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For sure that crew new what they did.
Apologies for the thread drift but, just talking about general principles, is this statement for real Bracket04?!
Because we are professional pilots we don't make errors? Like for sure the crew that descended below their step-down alt in Guam knew what they did?

Yes we are pilots. We are also human beings. We make mistakes and we also sometimes make bad judgement calls. When we do it is important that we admit to them, analyse them, and re-educate ourselves to prevent making the same ones in future.

For sure that crew new what they did.
= very dangerous attitude. And just to clarify, I don't care a jot that you're Spanish and I'm not British ok?
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 10:50
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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BelArgUSA:
I am seriously upset at the way some of you slap the face of IB flight crews and doubt the professionalism of pilots of different "cultures" which are not yours. Is it another form of, shall I spell it in the clear, pure racism and prejudice...?
Well, I'm spanish and I think the Cpt was a cowboy. In my country, pilots, as well as doctors are considered Gods, and nobody dares question them. Had I been standing next to them in Boston, I would have also said something. I agree that instead of "YOU DO" I would have probably said something a little more elaborate......

Last edited by wince; 9th Dec 2007 at 10:52. Reason: spelling
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 10:53
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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Do you all guys think that the YOU DO!! transmission was an understandable and clear message?????

I think the Iberia crew could not even hear it, maybe they only had the information about the controller asking if they needed de-ice, but maybe they didn't noticed that the airplane's crew next to them could see snow on their wings. There is people flying around there whose english is not a mother-thongue.....you should be aware of that and take care when you want to say something to a non english-native crew!!!!!
They could be doing anything else in that moment and didn't hear LTD YOU DO! .....What I'm trying to say is that there are many reasons why the Iberia crew could not know that they had snow in the wings.....and they should not be hang or aeronautically killed on a forum.

If you had bothered to read the full thread, which you clearly haven't, you would know that LTD did not post the flight number
LTD only gave the carrier and the day! How many flights is Iberia doing to Boston daily??? I think he posted too much than necessary...just my opinion.

I AGREE WITH DK_FCI we know just a small part of the story to judge the situation.

But anyway as I said before....I have never met any commercial pilot that would take off with ice or snow on its wings in Spain. Someone did???


LTD: In my opinion....you should have given the information much more clearly to the Iberia crew and let them know what was really happening!!
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 11:02
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LTD: In my opinion....you should have given the information much more clearly to the Iberia crew and let them know what was really happening!!
You are kidding right. What part of
British Airways advise that you may want to recheck your wings for deicing
is not understandable.

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Old 9th Dec 2007, 11:13
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Nice Flaps.

Yes you are right. It is relly hard to me to admit that they where aware of the threat to the safety and the did not take the neccesary meassures. I can not belive it. So maybe they where not aware of this fact... if it was a real fact. Thats the reason why I think we can not call cowboys our mates and starting empty chats about south and north. All we commit mistakes and I know we are here to help us and improve from the mistakes.

Regards.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 11:14
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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That was said by the controller, not LTD.
That is not what LTD was thinking! LTD was trying to say, you guys have a lot of snow on the wings and you should de-ice!!

Ground: British Airways advise that you may want to recheck your wings for deicing

Do you think that is the same than.... The Captain of the British airplane next to you has reported that you have snow on the wings and thinks you should recheck your wings for deicing. That would be a clear message for me. Don't you agree?? I repeat that they are not english native!!!




ps: I've read all 14 pages carefully & heard to the tape. Danny: Maybe you should try to put yourself on their position.....trying to manage with non aeronautical english in the Boson Cenaaa or Boson Dilivri freqs (Yes! is not a mistake, they speak like with an egg in their mouths) Advice (you get it or not...up to you): TRY TO TRANSMIT CLEAR AND AERONAUTICALLY PLEASE!!!

Last edited by OCEANIC CLEARANCE; 9th Dec 2007 at 11:48. Reason: adding ps
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 11:17
  #267 (permalink)  

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OCEANIC CLEARANCE, before getting all hot under the collar, please re-read the thread and you will note that aside from the initial "You do" comment, which we all agree was out of place, LTD then asked the Clearance Delivery controller to pass a message to the IB crew that he had seen a lot of snow on the IB6166 wing. Later, if you had bothered to listen to the tapes or read this thread carefully, you would have noted that the Ground Controller passed on to the IB crew the concerns of the BA crew. Besides, if you listened to the tapes you would have heard just about every other flight requesting push-back also requesting de-icing. The only time the controller repeatedly asked if anyone needed de-icing was the IB flight. It is not conclusive but if I were a betting man I would place money on the fact that the controller was probably just as surprised as the BA crew that the IB flight was not going to de-ice.

I'm sorry, but reading some of the knee-jerk responses in this thread from people who OBVIOUSLY haven't read it all or haven't listened to the tapes and then go on the defensive is getting just a bit more than mildly irritating. Added to that are the comments from some people who obviously have absolutely no idea of how the de-icing procedures work at BOS. In order to try and make it a bit clearer to those with no experience of operating at BOS, you have to request start clearance with the CLNC DEL controller. They will clear you to push back from the gate for de-icing. It is only a limited push-back in order to clear the pier. Once you have been de-iced you will then push-back and start engines before requesting taxi clearance from the Ground Controller.

So, all those doubters going on about whether the crew had de-iced before requesting push-back, you had better get to grips with de-icing ops at BOS before trying to attack those who are solely trying to point out what they observed that day. Also, would all those who feel their national pride or ego's have been besmirched, please refrain from the unsurprising "racist" comments because there is nothing racist in this thread. All that was pointed out was the style of defensive comments coming from those who claim to be from 'Latin' backgrounds in their user profiles.

Had there been an incident involving the IB flight then I'm sure that the cameras located on the stands that record everything at BOS would have shown how much snow was in fact on the IB6166's wings that night. Now, can we get back to the debate about safety and leave the injured pride for your psychiatrists to deal with!
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 12:09
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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why don't we start a poll? Just like with the TAP airshow flyby.

Do you think the Iberia crew acted responsibly by departing without getting de-iced?
1. I am a professional pilot and I think they acted responsibly
2. I am a professional pilot and I think they acted irresponsibly
3. I am not a professional pilot and I think they acted responsibly
4. I am not a professional pilot and I think they acted irresponsibly

(I think only moderators can actually start a poll...)
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 12:45
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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DK FCI suggests...
I have absolutely no idea what might have motivated him to start a thread like this.

Perhaps he should read Captain Thaines story "The Munich Air Disaster" which took place at at time when the effects of slush on take-off performance and the aerodynamics of a snow covered wing were not fully understood. We now understand so much more, and have the laid down procedures to cope with such weather conditions.


We have one professional pilot (the airline doesn't matter) who was appalled by the actions of another that day at Boston such that he started this thread.

I applaud him for starting the debate. It might just save a life one day.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 14:54
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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I applaud him for starting the debate.
Actually, he called them 'cowboys' simply because the other crew didn't happen to agree with his particular modus operande.
His initial comment was totally out of place, and further, the IB crew I suspect knew perfectly well what they were doing...and said so.
And it worked.
Of course, the 'complainer' was a BA type (it seems) so I am not surprised in the slightest.
Perhaps these types might keep their big noses out of other folks business...
Naw, that would never do...they are the 'experts', according to them anyway
Total Atlantic crossing with an engine unserviceable...yep, they is the experts
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 15:05
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Big difference between departing with snow on your wings vs continuing a flight on a four engine aircraft after one has failed.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 16:02
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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No Pilot Here...just SLF

It is quite worrying that you professional pilots are arguing whether is safer to take off with snow on the wings or to fly with an engine out (well you still have 3 working). What are the SOP? Why LTD did not reply to any comment since days? Why he did not post a MOR? I think those should be the topics of this thread... Anyway I am ready to all the bashing coming to me...since I am not a professional pilot and I dared to post here.
Regards
Andy
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 16:30
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Actually, he called them 'cowboys' simply because the other crew didn't happen to agree with his particular modus operande(sic).
His initial comment was totally out of place, and further, the IB crew I suspect knew perfectly well what they were doing...and said so.
And it worked.
Of course, the 'complainer' was a BA type (it seems) so I am not surprised in the slightest.
Perhaps these types might keep their big noses out of other folks business...
Naw, that would never do...they are the 'experts', according to them anyway
Total Atlantic crossing with an engine unserviceable...yep, they is the experts
His 'modus operande' (sic) is what everyone else generally does when its snowing (or icy conditions), right?

After all, isn't assertiveness an important quality of a pilot? it's good that he put forward his concerns rather than leaving it and thus finding out the planes crashed killing people.

"they is the experts" - err yeah right.. how does 1 pilot represent every other pilot in BA?

Im no prof. pilot but your post seems to me like a string of crap tbh.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 16:31
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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the IB crew I suspect knew perfectly well what they were doing...
So did the crews of Air Florida Flight 90, Airborne Express N926AX, Arrow Air Flight MF1285R, Transwede SE-DEC, Continental Flight 1713, Air Ontario Flight 1363, Korean Air HL7285, Ryan Flight 590, USAir Flight 405, Palair Macedonian Flight 301, Agco Corp. N90AG, China Yunnan Flight MU5210, Hop a Jet Flight 73, to mention a few....

And it worked.
I heard rumours that an "old and bold" pilot actually made it...
Nice to meet you...
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 17:15
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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Large Airplanes

I like the guys who state, “no one knows their airplane like the Captain”

What a crock of s*&%. I’ve been flying for over 18 years. When I flew heavies > 348 Metric tones as a Captain and Instructor pilot the only thing you knew about your airplane (If not displayed on the panel) was what other people told you. The wings, can’t see those from the front, fuselage – can’t see that either, the Engines – maybe the outboards, but can’t see the inboards. What is going on 200’ back in the cabin? You’ll have to ask.

So lets assume you’ve been de-iced. Someone calls and says you should de-ice. What do you do? You get off your bottom and go take a look. Just because you’ve de-iced doesn’t guarantee it worked or the conditions are such where you’ll need to do it again or the snow is so heavy de-icing can’t help.

When you fly heavies you better listen to people outside and in the back of the aircraft. They have a lot better view than you.

Arrogance and assuming it will work because it always does will shorten your career.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 17:48
  #276 (permalink)  
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FrequentSLF;

It is quite worrying that you professional pilots are arguing whether is safer to take off with snow on the wings or to fly with an engine out (well you still have 3 working).
Is it only worrying because the discussion is taking place "in public"? Do you not think that such discussions take place among doctors in the OR - "how to proceed?...what's the "SOP"?, "I wouldn't do that!", etc, etc? In fact, the medical profession could still learn a tremendous amount from the airline piloting profession just in terms of CRM (ORM?) let alone being so open, in public, to self-examination and self-criticism. Pretty healthy and professional behaviours I think, notwithstanding the blunt comments.

Also, out of the thousands of professional airline crews, there are likely only a few who contribute their opinions regularly and enjoy the sparring, heated as it may get from time to time. This is a forum, after all and not a professional journal. That said, let us keep in mind the assistance provided to the Australian film crew doing a story on the Phuket accident.

FWIW re the topic of the thread, while we don't know whether an actual "critical surface" inspection was carried out, (such cannot be done at night with any reliability) the law in Canada is, (as has been emphasized several times here), is "clean wing", period, and I suspect the FARs are the same. If the aircraft was flown with contaminated wings (regardless of whether it would "blow off" or not), I hope the FAA is conducting a formal investigation as they did with the BA747 3-engine incident.

Unless one wishes to be yet another test case and possible statistic, these days one simply doesn't depart with any contamination on the wings. There is nothing in any Ops Manual, regulation or "airmanship" item that may justify the decision not to de-ice when wing contamination has been observed.

The thread has largely concerned itself with "how" the crew was informed and whether "tattling" is a professional behaviour. Nonsense - the entire point is missed. How they were informed doesn't matter. The crew cannot possibly know what was under the "light snow" but departed anyway.

Whether the aircraft, their passengers and their employer were at risk will never be known because the takeoff was successful and as such is being accepted by some as evidence that the "right" decision was made. As most professional aviators know, that is not how "success" in aviation is judged.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 18:51
  #277 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by PJ2

Originally Posted by FrequentSLF
It is quite worrying that you professional pilots are arguing whether is safer to take off with snow on the wings or to fly with an engine out (well you still have 3 working).
Is it only worrying because the discussion is taking place "in public"?
I took Andy to mean that he found it worrying that any professional pilot should be in any doubt as to which was the lunacy and which was the SOP

Originally Posted by PJ2
Whether the aircraft, their passengers and their employer were at risk will never be known because the takeoff was successful and as such is being accepted by some as evidence that the "right" decision was made. As most professional aviators know, that is not how "success" in aviation is judged.
Quite.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 19:30
  #278 (permalink)  
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fyrefli;

I took Andy to mean that he found it worrying that any professional pilot should be in any doubt as to which was the lunacy and which was the SOP
Yes, see that now, tx.
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 20:01
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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HolidayPilot

As fully paid up SLF and with absolutely no right whatsoever to contribute to this thread (apart from some minor flying experience and the old man doing 39-45 - hence the interest), might I humbly add that the comment from Holidaypilot appeared to me to be the most heartening and sensible one (of quite a lot of good contributions). Pity your industry appears to be as ridden with internecine warfare, agendas, egos and backstabbing as mine. And that's television journalism (which of course you all know about and comment upon freely - without any knowledge or experience) Er, well that's it from me - fire away...
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Old 9th Dec 2007, 22:05
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I hope the FAA is conducting a formal investigation as they did with the BA747 3-engine incident.
and how would you suggest that they perform the investigation?

Should they take statements from other pilots like we do on this board?

I've been through these kind of investigations and the bottom line I got told one day was

"the Captain is the Captain"

What you start with is a review of the carrier's procedures and the lee way allowed the captain. It's pretty difficult for the FAA to do anything after the fact, other than review procedures.
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