Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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LTD, I am totally in agreement with your concerns at the attitude of the IB A340 crew.
This attitude is not good for the Industry, Especially the safety of the Airframe and all aboard.
It sounds like the IB crew didn't carealess, As to any concerns coming from yourself and any other like minded proffessionals.
The Tower ATC didn't sound too bothered either??
If you turned the tables, And it was you pushing back, Would they have said anything about you not being de iced??
Sounds like IB needs more CRM & decision making training??
This attitude is not good for the Industry, Especially the safety of the Airframe and all aboard.
It sounds like the IB crew didn't carealess, As to any concerns coming from yourself and any other like minded proffessionals.
The Tower ATC didn't sound too bothered either??
If you turned the tables, And it was you pushing back, Would they have said anything about you not being de iced??
Sounds like IB needs more CRM & decision making training??
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The Tower ATC didn't sound too bothered either??
I know of some (small) companies that sometimes try to delay de-icing for ecomomic reasons. (e.i. to avoid the costs) But that is not the case with IB and major carriers.
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Re a comment earlier in the thread that the aircraft may have been deiced earlier.
According to LTD the viz was 1 mile in snow late in the afternoon. According to our viz charts if it was still daylight, then it would have been considered moderate snowfall, if it was dark, then this is considered heavy snowfall. According to the holdover charts for SAE type IV, there is NO published holdover times for heavy snow. In moderate it would be 35 mins. Not to say that he can't take off in heavy snow, or after 35 mins but an inspection of the fluid would be required, and if he isn't familiar with deicing and type IV fluid, and the signs of fluid breakdown, then it would be best if it was done by somebody else. I find it highly unlikely that an earlier spray at the gate in those conditions would have been sufficient.
I really don't understand the mindset that allows a "professional" crew to depart with snow on the wings. LTD did what needed to be done. In Canada, enforcement action is a possibility for departing with a contaminated wing, and for good reason. There is no excuse..
According to LTD the viz was 1 mile in snow late in the afternoon. According to our viz charts if it was still daylight, then it would have been considered moderate snowfall, if it was dark, then this is considered heavy snowfall. According to the holdover charts for SAE type IV, there is NO published holdover times for heavy snow. In moderate it would be 35 mins. Not to say that he can't take off in heavy snow, or after 35 mins but an inspection of the fluid would be required, and if he isn't familiar with deicing and type IV fluid, and the signs of fluid breakdown, then it would be best if it was done by somebody else. I find it highly unlikely that an earlier spray at the gate in those conditions would have been sufficient.
I really don't understand the mindset that allows a "professional" crew to depart with snow on the wings. LTD did what needed to be done. In Canada, enforcement action is a possibility for departing with a contaminated wing, and for good reason. There is no excuse..
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Icing Awarwness
After all the blaming and sniping between the contributors of this post has finished, at least it has raised the awareness of this safety critical subject.
North America has had a pretty poor record where De/Anti icing is concerned.
How many times have I asked for a 'spray over' and then be challenged by the agent " Gee, ABC 123, just left and he didn't deice"
Make it clean & keep it clean.
A clear and unambiguous transmission to a 'dirty aeroplane' is a responsible action and provides an audit trail to those who consider that the laws of physic's to not apply to them.
North America has had a pretty poor record where De/Anti icing is concerned.
How many times have I asked for a 'spray over' and then be challenged by the agent " Gee, ABC 123, just left and he didn't deice"
Make it clean & keep it clean.
A clear and unambiguous transmission to a 'dirty aeroplane' is a responsible action and provides an audit trail to those who consider that the laws of physic's to not apply to them.
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IB + snow
Iberia's main hub in MAD sees it's fair share of snow/ice in Jan/Feb so the crew should be familiar. I've flown several times from MAD with IB and been de-iced.
While I applaud the commradship of informing a neighbouring plane of what you can see I do think we must remember that all companies have cowboys if you think you firm doesn't think again!! It's a little unfair to cruzify IB for the actions of one captain. Furthermore there are probably limited Spanish crew reading this thread so v little chance of defence!
While I applaud the commradship of informing a neighbouring plane of what you can see I do think we must remember that all companies have cowboys if you think you firm doesn't think again!! It's a little unfair to cruzify IB for the actions of one captain. Furthermore there are probably limited Spanish crew reading this thread so v little chance of defence!
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I agree entirely in what the basic rule is; safety and solely that before anything else. BUT what I don´t agree with AT ALL, is the judging of an airlines reputation, of a main european carrier, a one world alliance member,an airline with an incident record dating from 1927 that many wish would have.
The quote; "Ib cowboys" is something that you should rap up, fill up with ketchup and stick in that pie hole that you seem to have, and first of all if you have all those years of experience you should have learned that generalising what 1 person does and comparing it with the others has as much value as your way of calling the ib pilots attention= none.
If you go one day to work with fatigue or without a proper rest, you would also be putting in danger the rest of the passengers as this capt did. Wouldnt it sound ridicoulous if I wanted to refer to you by talking of evryone in your airline.
Peace out buddy,, things like this happen every second of the day,, and youre not going to make the world a safer place with that attitude.
The quote; "Ib cowboys" is something that you should rap up, fill up with ketchup and stick in that pie hole that you seem to have, and first of all if you have all those years of experience you should have learned that generalising what 1 person does and comparing it with the others has as much value as your way of calling the ib pilots attention= none.
If you go one day to work with fatigue or without a proper rest, you would also be putting in danger the rest of the passengers as this capt did. Wouldnt it sound ridicoulous if I wanted to refer to you by talking of evryone in your airline.
Peace out buddy,, things like this happen every second of the day,, and youre not going to make the world a safer place with that attitude.
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Air Florida January 13th 1982
Washington National airport, Air florida Flight 90 departed gate 12 after being delayed for an hour and twenty minutes after de-icing. Just before take off the first officer voiced his concern saying that he had been a while since de-icing and both pilots could see the show on the wings.
The flight continued and took off. What resulted was devistion for most of the passengers onboard and for commuters stopped on the 14th st bridge over the Potomac River. The737 slammed into the bridge and then into the frozen river Potomac. All but 5 of the passengers on board lost their lives.
Check out the NTSB reports, this was the result of chain of events but mainly weakly mixed de-icing solution and the accumulated snow on both wings because of the delayed take off after de-icing!!
Video footage etc is availabe of the actual event. Its quite disturbing. This was 25 years ago, we are now in 2007 surely no pilot should allow themselves enter a situation that has the potential to result in another accident like this.
The flight continued and took off. What resulted was devistion for most of the passengers onboard and for commuters stopped on the 14th st bridge over the Potomac River. The737 slammed into the bridge and then into the frozen river Potomac. All but 5 of the passengers on board lost their lives.
Check out the NTSB reports, this was the result of chain of events but mainly weakly mixed de-icing solution and the accumulated snow on both wings because of the delayed take off after de-icing!!
Video footage etc is availabe of the actual event. Its quite disturbing. This was 25 years ago, we are now in 2007 surely no pilot should allow themselves enter a situation that has the potential to result in another accident like this.
Last edited by Pjlot; 4th Dec 2007 at 21:18.
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Well done LTD! You've done what anyone responsible would have done in your situation. Unfortunately you see this kind of behavior in many walks of life, except here this guy endangered all PAX on board and people on ground had he went down. I don't think that you calling them cowboys and posting this info here is wrong at all - good job !
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Very emotive thread.Pilots must watch out for each other.However,the way you do it is almost as important as the cause of your concern.Never openly contradict another professional on an open frequency.Make an observation and repeat it until you've been heard loud and clear.If hes as professional as you are,he'll heed the warning.In this case,the Iberia pilots would have responded with"Thank you for your advice.We're going to make another inspection and review our decision."
If you intercede indiscreetly and aggressively,you end up defeating your own good intentions.Privately,you might be fuming,but always follow the protocol.There are exceptions to the rule of course(like witnessing a line-up on a closed/wrong runway).In that case,protocol be damned and you do what must be done.
Additionally,by naming the airline in question,the company could trace the crew in question through the date and type of aircraft.You were right to post but should not have mentioned the airline in question.
If you intercede indiscreetly and aggressively,you end up defeating your own good intentions.Privately,you might be fuming,but always follow the protocol.There are exceptions to the rule of course(like witnessing a line-up on a closed/wrong runway).In that case,protocol be damned and you do what must be done.
Additionally,by naming the airline in question,the company could trace the crew in question through the date and type of aircraft.You were right to post but should not have mentioned the airline in question.
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As a professional, licenced pilot there is a duty and legal requirement to report any un-airworthy or suspected un-airworthy condition. This does not apply just to the aircraft that you are sitting in. Check the ANO.
If you see an aircraft taxi past with a slide dangling out of the bottom of the door you must not only report it you should also raise an MOR. If you see an A/C taxi past which you suspect may be covered with ice the very least you should do is tell somebody about it. That is good airmanship. Pretending that you didn't see it is poor airmanship.
If you see an aircraft taxi past with a slide dangling out of the bottom of the door you must not only report it you should also raise an MOR. If you see an A/C taxi past which you suspect may be covered with ice the very least you should do is tell somebody about it. That is good airmanship. Pretending that you didn't see it is poor airmanship.
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Many moons ago a skipper of a renowned carrier travelled ID-pax on a smaller national carrier. After push-back, seeing the wing nicely covered with snow and realizing they were not deicing, he asked the hoastie to tell the captain just that, identifying himself as a fellow captain. She came back reporting the PIC said the passenger should mind his own business. The skipper, as able body beeing seated at a emergency exit, then opened this overwing window to avoid take-off.
Outcome of the story: He got arrested and convicted for endagering flight operations.
The flight later took off deiced.
Food for thought
Outcome of the story: He got arrested and convicted for endagering flight operations.
The flight later took off deiced.
Food for thought
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Question from a curious non-pilot (you can flame me for my cheek/ignorance if you like)
Would a BOS/MAD normally be a 3-crew operation? In other words would there have been one or two senior pilots involved in the 'go' decision?
Would a BOS/MAD normally be a 3-crew operation? In other words would there have been one or two senior pilots involved in the 'go' decision?
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Follow-on from GMDS' post. What to do if you are an aviation professional, but travelling as SLF, and notice something 'less than optimal' in the operation? eg snow/ice on the wing, flaps/slats incorrectly configured.
Even after bringing the observation to the CA, does one blithely sit and trust to luck as Captain Speaking (Big Ego & 4 Bars) attempts to facilitate an early rendezvous with one's Maker?
Even after bringing the observation to the CA, does one blithely sit and trust to luck as Captain Speaking (Big Ego & 4 Bars) attempts to facilitate an early rendezvous with one's Maker?
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Even after bringing the observation to the CA, does one blithely sit and trust to luck as Captain Speaking (Big Ego & 4 Bars) attempts to facilitate an early rendezvous with one's Maker?
No, you politely ask to be disembarked immediately, for health reasons.
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The 'correct' Way To Stroke An Ego
LTD - In essence what you did was completely warranted and professional..BUT my recall of the original reasoning for the introduction of CRM all those years ago was that any Crew Member [ or observer ? ] irrrespective of his seniority should be emboldened to get his message accross....vehemently if neccessary. But in this particular case I would have thought that as this particular situation wasn't ' time critical' that the choice of a few milder ..yes, gentler words, may have stroked this confused mans ego to the point where he may have resorted to actually getting his aircraft de-iced. Which is what you were after in the first place.
RANAMIN. Please excuse me asking . But how many voices do you actually hear at any one time ?
RANAMIN. Please excuse me asking . But how many voices do you actually hear at any one time ?
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A few years back now, I was a pax on a LGW-NCE company charter. We had two aircraft - a 732 and a MD83. Although it was April, some freak weather conditions resulted in heavy snowfall at Gatwick prior to departure. In spite of deicing, departure delays meant that both aircraft had accumulated more snow by the time their turn had come for take-off. The 733 I was on managed to shed the snow covering the wings at rotation and we flew uneventfully to Nice. Some time after the following M83 had failed to arrive we heard that its snow covering had passed straight into the engines at rotation. It struggled into the air, and managed to land at Filton on one engine at the second attempt after using up fuel. Several passengers declined the replacement flight later, after the experience.
I'm always very sympathetic to delays caused by de-icing after that.
I'm always very sympathetic to delays caused by de-icing after that.
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LTD, in my opinion correct call.
You should have taken out your camera and film it.
Maybe a passenger did it and we will see it on the internet soon...
I wouldnt say that all Iberia pilots are cowboys because a couple of macho's think they are above the rules of aerodynamics.
The stupidity of the crew operating that particular flight is already big enough.
You should have taken out your camera and film it.
Maybe a passenger did it and we will see it on the internet soon...I wouldnt say that all Iberia pilots are cowboys because a couple of macho's think they are above the rules of aerodynamics.
The stupidity of the crew operating that particular flight is already big enough
.
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Correct call LTD.
While I don't particularly like the title of the thread I see no alternative if we are to avoid fellow pilots being pressured by management in to taking off with the wings/fuselage as described. If the crew were 'just in a hurry' then the more publicity this thread attracts the better.
While it is a long time since I did a deicing course, I thought that with the correct fluid applied within the holdover times that snow would not accummulate in the manner described.
While I don't particularly like the title of the thread I see no alternative if we are to avoid fellow pilots being pressured by management in to taking off with the wings/fuselage as described. If the crew were 'just in a hurry' then the more publicity this thread attracts the better.
While it is a long time since I did a deicing course, I thought that with the correct fluid applied within the holdover times that snow would not accummulate in the manner described.