XL191 Video/Text Anyone?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XL191 Video/Text Anyone?
I am rather keen to learn the full story of this crash at Hamilton in 1986 with the intention of using it in CRM presentations.
I am told that there is a video available but have been unable to track it down. Is anyone able to point me in the right direction or provide a copy of the findings please?
I am told that there is a video available but have been unable to track it down. Is anyone able to point me in the right direction or provide a copy of the findings please?
The pilot of XL191 on it's last flight is a regular contributer to these forums, and one of your colleagues I gather! Why not ask him directly, or maybe you have! Are you sure this is for a CRM presentation?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ex-colleague and no contact.
As I said, needed for CRM course. Is that a problem? I know it was RAF but assume the details are in the public domain.
Anyone?
As I said, needed for CRM course. Is that a problem? I know it was RAF but assume the details are in the public domain.
Anyone?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smeagel = hope this helps= found in the public domain
"I was the "Air Boss" of the Hamilton show when the Victor crashed.
It created a major problem for the show as it's tail impinged on the clearances on the main runway, the only one long enough to take some of the Military jets, which was then closed.
We could not move the aircraft until it had been examined and we had to turf out the Air Attache from Ottawa (Who had been invited to attend but was involved something else.) and he flew in and convened a Court of Inquiry. The CoI group flew in via a VC-10, which we hoped would stay for static display at the show, no such luck!
The bottom line was the aircraft was moved enough to allow the runway to re-open and the diverted aircraft were gathered in from the surrounding airfields. Fortunately the Victor had planned to come in early.
The Victor had flown in from Marham direct and we had requested that they bring a barrel of British beer to sell at the show. The Fire crew said when they got to the aircraft they were amazed to see the crew was pushing out a barrel of beer! Unfortunately the fire crew took the rescued flight crew to their building and somehow the beer never made it to the show!
What happened? According to the story we got from the crew,(before they had time to think a better one up) they had an electrical problem when between Quebec and Montreal and they had to cancel their IFR flight plan, so they descended to below the IFR level (9,500ft?) and flew VFR to Hamilton. This of course significantly increased the fuel consumption!
Unfortunately Hamilton is susceptible to local fogs as the warm moist air from the Lake Ontario drifts in and is pushed up over the airport where it condenses to form a local fog. We got the word from Toronto Control that the Victor was coming in and was going to attempt an approach without it's approach aids!! The first approach was missed and we got word from the Hamilton tower that they only had sufficient fuel for one more approach and after that they were going to fly over Lake Ontario and eject!
They broke out of the crud to find they were significantly off the runway heading and they tried a quick correction, but they just did not have time to correct and they ran off the runway into a gully, driving the undercarriage oleos up through the wings.
It was our understanding that the aircraft was one of the newer Victors and it had recently had it's life extended.
We were told the Captain was let go from the Air Force mainly for lack of judgement in that he could have landed safely at Montreal, Trenton or Toronto. The aircraft was scrapped and the nose section was donated to the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum. I believe they eventually disposed of it as it did not fit into their collection mandate.
It was a long time ago, I hope this fills in some gaps."
yes-the "captain" was one MJ. I understand he actually stayed in the RAF (just) but was not allowed near anything difficult. He now flies for a large european bizjet operator.
This scenario is still used to this day in safety classes. (how not to do it)
"I was the "Air Boss" of the Hamilton show when the Victor crashed.
It created a major problem for the show as it's tail impinged on the clearances on the main runway, the only one long enough to take some of the Military jets, which was then closed.
We could not move the aircraft until it had been examined and we had to turf out the Air Attache from Ottawa (Who had been invited to attend but was involved something else.) and he flew in and convened a Court of Inquiry. The CoI group flew in via a VC-10, which we hoped would stay for static display at the show, no such luck!
The bottom line was the aircraft was moved enough to allow the runway to re-open and the diverted aircraft were gathered in from the surrounding airfields. Fortunately the Victor had planned to come in early.
The Victor had flown in from Marham direct and we had requested that they bring a barrel of British beer to sell at the show. The Fire crew said when they got to the aircraft they were amazed to see the crew was pushing out a barrel of beer! Unfortunately the fire crew took the rescued flight crew to their building and somehow the beer never made it to the show!
What happened? According to the story we got from the crew,(before they had time to think a better one up) they had an electrical problem when between Quebec and Montreal and they had to cancel their IFR flight plan, so they descended to below the IFR level (9,500ft?) and flew VFR to Hamilton. This of course significantly increased the fuel consumption!
Unfortunately Hamilton is susceptible to local fogs as the warm moist air from the Lake Ontario drifts in and is pushed up over the airport where it condenses to form a local fog. We got the word from Toronto Control that the Victor was coming in and was going to attempt an approach without it's approach aids!! The first approach was missed and we got word from the Hamilton tower that they only had sufficient fuel for one more approach and after that they were going to fly over Lake Ontario and eject!
They broke out of the crud to find they were significantly off the runway heading and they tried a quick correction, but they just did not have time to correct and they ran off the runway into a gully, driving the undercarriage oleos up through the wings.
It was our understanding that the aircraft was one of the newer Victors and it had recently had it's life extended.
We were told the Captain was let go from the Air Force mainly for lack of judgement in that he could have landed safely at Montreal, Trenton or Toronto. The aircraft was scrapped and the nose section was donated to the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum. I believe they eventually disposed of it as it did not fit into their collection mandate.
It was a long time ago, I hope this fills in some gaps."
yes-the "captain" was one MJ. I understand he actually stayed in the RAF (just) but was not allowed near anything difficult. He now flies for a large european bizjet operator.
This scenario is still used to this day in safety classes. (how not to do it)
Last edited by scambuster; 18th Oct 2008 at 07:34. Reason: its a quote,+additional info
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
more info
19‑Jun‑86
XL191
Victor K2
55 Sqn
Hamilton Canada
0
Crashed into the undershoot during approach to land. The detailed circumstances of this accident are taught within the RAF flight safety training environment as an example of how not to do things. In essence there was a breakdown in crew cooperation which, when taken with other factors led to the loss of the aircraft
XL191
Victor K2
55 Sqn
Hamilton Canada
0
Crashed into the undershoot during approach to land. The detailed circumstances of this accident are taught within the RAF flight safety training environment as an example of how not to do things. In essence there was a breakdown in crew cooperation which, when taken with other factors led to the loss of the aircraft
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kettering
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hamilton and CRM
I'd be surprised if there isn't a copy of the report in the MOD Flight Safety organization. I remember it lying around the crew room when it was first published. I do have some notes I made as I was looking at developing a CRM course at the time. It is quite a good example. From memory there were issues around unauthorized departure from plan to go sightseeing over Niagara Falls, wrong pressure setting resulting in illegal low flying, issues with nav aid set-up, task sharing on approach. It is worth looking at.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cautiously eyeing the outside world.
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Belated thanks to both of you (I don't come here much these days).
I've now built my course and resorted to other material but it wouldn't be a big job to change things. Given the military aspect I also thought it would be of interest to Air Cadets and military display pilots (I present courses to both groups, talk about the two opposite ends of the scale, eh?).
The hunt continues.
I've now built my course and resorted to other material but it wouldn't be a big job to change things. Given the military aspect I also thought it would be of interest to Air Cadets and military display pilots (I present courses to both groups, talk about the two opposite ends of the scale, eh?).
The hunt continues.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I remember, the front crew had a falling out with the rear crew and there was not much communication between either. I'm sure that they attempted an ILS approach but didn't have the correct crystals fitted. Although there was no loss of life, it may be worth knowing that the Crew Chief of the aircraft, who came in for a small amount of criticism, subsequently took his own life after the accident report was published. Very sad.
