Which sector do you want?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: nowhere near here
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they're mine, all mine...
I guess one thing that should come across to FOs on this thread is that you just can't please everyone. Some captains like you to be proactive, some like you to sit back, shut up and occasionally read a checklist. The best advice really is to be professional, polite and act (and fly) as you are trained to. This can sometimes mean getting up the noses of Captains who'd rather not have your input and, sadly, that just comes with the job of being an FO.
Please don't be bullied into submission by a Captain who would rather laugh at you for not knowing as much as he or she does than actually teach you something. Said Captain is not behaving professionally and the best stance to take - in my experience - is a sort of benign indulgence as if they are a spoilt child or mental patient. Works a treat for me.
Please don't be bullied into submission by a Captain who would rather laugh at you for not knowing as much as he or she does than actually teach you something. Said Captain is not behaving professionally and the best stance to take - in my experience - is a sort of benign indulgence as if they are a spoilt child or mental patient. Works a treat for me.
I suppose one could turn the argument on its head and suggest that Captains ignore arrogant little upstarts with damn all experience who swan around with hands in their pockets, sunglasses on their heads and who believe they have a god given right to equal treatment because Daddy has paid for their integrated course.
Of course one would not say that because it would'nt be true unless of course you know better..................................................
Of course one would not say that because it would'nt be true unless of course you know better..................................................
Last edited by beamer; 23rd Jun 2006 at 12:44.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: England
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beamer,
More likely to be an "Integrated" course if daddy's paid for it
Overflare - The genre of Skipper you refer to have long since fallen by the wayside; certainly in my outfit anyway (and most of my mates outfits to be honest)
BS
because Daddy has paid for their modular course
Overflare - The genre of Skipper you refer to have long since fallen by the wayside; certainly in my outfit anyway (and most of my mates outfits to be honest)
BS
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Surrounding the localizer
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
As for salad dodging - 85kgs LMC for a pilot.....and then some in my case
I guess most of the posts on here touch on the main fundamentals of this issue, and of course the CRM aspects as well. I for one wouldn't like to assume anything because on any given day the guy in the seat next to you might be grumpy/sad/away with the fairy's (no not the ones in the galley
) etc etc.Far better to ask a question in a polite fashion, with all the following good CRM and cross-checking, than end up being the star witness at the subsequent board of enquiry..or having to share the company hob-nobs with the fleet manager.
And yes where I work they are advertising for more biccy eaters
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I usually don't post in this forun as I am not an airline pilot,
but this is seemingly a matter of semantics. I can see how that particular order of words may offend a few.
So, since control over others reaction cannot be had, perhaps you should use some of the wording offered by your collegues on this site.
which sectors do I have? I like to prepare for the sectors i'm flying.
something like that, you then have the chance to be the mature one.
but this is seemingly a matter of semantics. I can see how that particular order of words may offend a few.
So, since control over others reaction cannot be had, perhaps you should use some of the wording offered by your collegues on this site.
which sectors do I have? I like to prepare for the sectors i'm flying.
something like that, you then have the chance to be the mature one.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Scandiland
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm getting really mixed signals here.
Being a fresh FO with next to no hours in the book, 15 hours on type and really keen, I've got no clue to unwritten do's and don'ts.
Some of you say that as a FO you should just sit in the RHS and shut up, as beamer so nicely put "arrogant little upstarts with damn all experience who swan around with hands in their pockets". How an earth do you think this makes a new FO feel that might be a bit insecure as he has just taken perhaps the biggest step in his professional life?! I've got no idea, perhaps I come across as an ignorrant little upstart if I for some reason have my sunglasses on my head and ask out of interest, what the captain is doing? I try not to act an "ignorrant upstart" but who am I to say how people percieve me? What's more frightening is how fast someone can judge another person. What does the captain know about me and what I'm capable of just because of perhaps a bad first impression? This attitude is what scares me the most about my new job. I cincerely hope I'll never have to fly with someone displaying this horrible attitude.
On the other hand, some say that we should be proactive and work ahead.
If this annoys a captain, having a keen young chap that sees to it that stuff gets done and away with, Who's doing it wrong? I'll just stop there...
It's a difficult topic this. Thank god I've only had good line training captains so far that follow the policy of splitting sectors 50/50 whenever possible and that don't take offence when I query them as to why they are doing what they are doing. I'll keep on like that methinks.
EDIT: about how to ask which sectors you are to fly, the suggested: "which sectors do you want me to fly" is just as bad as "which sector do you want to fly", if thing are as you say. This implies that the captain has ACTUALLY thought of giving you a couple of sectors or so.
/LnS
Being a fresh FO with next to no hours in the book, 15 hours on type and really keen, I've got no clue to unwritten do's and don'ts.
Some of you say that as a FO you should just sit in the RHS and shut up, as beamer so nicely put "arrogant little upstarts with damn all experience who swan around with hands in their pockets". How an earth do you think this makes a new FO feel that might be a bit insecure as he has just taken perhaps the biggest step in his professional life?! I've got no idea, perhaps I come across as an ignorrant little upstart if I for some reason have my sunglasses on my head and ask out of interest, what the captain is doing? I try not to act an "ignorrant upstart" but who am I to say how people percieve me? What's more frightening is how fast someone can judge another person. What does the captain know about me and what I'm capable of just because of perhaps a bad first impression? This attitude is what scares me the most about my new job. I cincerely hope I'll never have to fly with someone displaying this horrible attitude.
On the other hand, some say that we should be proactive and work ahead.
If this annoys a captain, having a keen young chap that sees to it that stuff gets done and away with, Who's doing it wrong? I'll just stop there...
It's a difficult topic this. Thank god I've only had good line training captains so far that follow the policy of splitting sectors 50/50 whenever possible and that don't take offence when I query them as to why they are doing what they are doing. I'll keep on like that methinks.
EDIT: about how to ask which sectors you are to fly, the suggested: "which sectors do you want me to fly" is just as bad as "which sector do you want to fly", if thing are as you say. This implies that the captain has ACTUALLY thought of giving you a couple of sectors or so.
/LnS
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
low n' slow, I wouldn't worry completely what other think, you yourself cant be too judgemental, keep on the task at hand- first fly/ operate/handle the aircraft, use a respectful and professional tone,
I understand there's a little salt behind my advise, and an captain has earned his station - it doesn't hurt to be polite- and deferential, the way you speak to your elders
but, most "real" captains would probably want you to speak up if somethings a little off... cap'n it's the 030 radial, or a lot off, uhm L and C hyd have failed!!!
But, even if they do mind speak up... because the captain always goes down with ship ... along with FO Cabin crew possible a few hundred people all the poor puppies in the puppy snuffer area.... remember balance and perspective... I didn't make that up... now get on with, as you guys say
rhov
I understand there's a little salt behind my advise, and an captain has earned his station - it doesn't hurt to be polite- and deferential, the way you speak to your elders
but, most "real" captains would probably want you to speak up if somethings a little off... cap'n it's the 030 radial, or a lot off, uhm L and C hyd have failed!!!
But, even if they do mind speak up... because the captain always goes down with ship ... along with FO Cabin crew possible a few hundred people all the poor puppies in the puppy snuffer area.... remember balance and perspective... I didn't make that up... now get on with, as you guys say rhov
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by low n' slow
Thank god I've only had good line training captains so far that follow the policy of splitting sectors 50/50 whenever possible
PP
Guest
Posts: n/a
Low n slow,
don't take it personally,beamer is actually a good bloke who I have flown with on several occasions (just get him talking on rugby !)...and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now
As an FO you sometimes have to be a bit of a chameleon,trying to find common ground to talk about (outside of actually operating the aircraft),
there is nothing wrong with exercising a little iniative,however most suggestions at the planning stage are better made as 'suggestions',
in the aircraft it is different as,clearly,with matters of safety you must be up front and more forceful..
don't take it personally,beamer is actually a good bloke who I have flown with on several occasions (just get him talking on rugby !)...and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now
As an FO you sometimes have to be a bit of a chameleon,trying to find common ground to talk about (outside of actually operating the aircraft),
there is nothing wrong with exercising a little iniative,however most suggestions at the planning stage are better made as 'suggestions',
in the aircraft it is different as,clearly,with matters of safety you must be up front and more forceful..
Fade to Grey - thanks old chap for those sentiments - can't wait till those pre-season friendlies in August.
Obviously a certain degree of irony and self-deprecation has gone over the heads of some of the youngsters - don't take yourselves so seriously, there are enough bloody ego's in this industry already ! Fact is that the vast majority of new troops are just fine, they are eager to learn and are a credit to their training - there are however a few.............need I say more ? My trips are ALWAYS split 50/50 with choice 95% of the time offered to the F/O - arrangement works just fine
Obviously a certain degree of irony and self-deprecation has gone over the heads of some of the youngsters - don't take yourselves so seriously, there are enough bloody ego's in this industry already ! Fact is that the vast majority of new troops are just fine, they are eager to learn and are a credit to their training - there are however a few.............need I say more ? My trips are ALWAYS split 50/50 with choice 95% of the time offered to the F/O - arrangement works just fine
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Scandiland
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers guys!
"..and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now"
Yeah, and I still do, seldomly reach above FL160 and faster than 250 (and then only in the descent)... I guess that's still low n' slow to most of you guys...
That chameleon buisness is something that not only applies to commercial flight deck work, but also during training. Some instructors will allways want to have things done this or that way. I guess the same applies in the company FD. After having read this thread, I asked one of my captains about this. He laughed and said that this mentality was part of the neanderthal era and I have to agree (otherwise I might be an arrogant little upstart, i'm learning
...), there simply has to be an open forum in which questions can be brought to light without it becoming a problem in itself.
/LnS
"..and congratulations on your first job i bet you have lived up to your user name a few times by now"
Yeah, and I still do, seldomly reach above FL160 and faster than 250 (and then only in the descent)... I guess that's still low n' slow to most of you guys...
That chameleon buisness is something that not only applies to commercial flight deck work, but also during training. Some instructors will allways want to have things done this or that way. I guess the same applies in the company FD. After having read this thread, I asked one of my captains about this. He laughed and said that this mentality was part of the neanderthal era and I have to agree (otherwise I might be an arrogant little upstart, i'm learning
...), there simply has to be an open forum in which questions can be brought to light without it becoming a problem in itself. /LnS
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love it when the F/O makes the decisions: it gives me an instant picture of what the individual is like.
If I don't agree I can always change things......doesnt happen often...cant remember the last time.
Just be careful how you phrase things......a word awry,or omitted, can often cause confusion.
If I don't agree I can always change things......doesnt happen often...cant remember the last time.
Just be careful how you phrase things......a word awry,or omitted, can often cause confusion.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Crinkley Bottom
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of the attitudes displayed here date back to the time when CRM wasn't taught. As a F/O you are trained to actually fly the aircraft as well as fill in the flight report and all the other bits of the rain forest that you accumulate during a days flying. The attitude of 'it is the Captains right to give sectors away' is antiquated and dates back to when being an F/O was when you were simply a flap and a pen operator and nothing much more than that. Such an attitude is counter productive to the team working ethos on the flight deck since a very steep left to right gradient will form and the F/O will undoubtedly feel undermined! I feel sorry for any F/O who falls foul of such an attitude if he asks a simple question before he leaves the crew room
Some of the situations described here are more akin to an air taxi operator where on an empty sector; a pilot's assistant may be offered to fly the sector. However the true colours of some skippers are obviously showing that they obviously regard their right seat colleague as simply an admin assistant and not a qualified pilot!
If the weather or the approach is demanding then in some cases it would be foolish for a F/O to fly that sector so it makes sense for the Capt to operate that one but when conditions permit the F/O to operate then I still can't see the problem when the F/O asks what sectors the Capt wants to do!
No doubt my comments will seem harsh to some but we are in the 21st century and attitudes should reflect this without undermining the total authority of the commander.
Some of the situations described here are more akin to an air taxi operator where on an empty sector; a pilot's assistant may be offered to fly the sector. However the true colours of some skippers are obviously showing that they obviously regard their right seat colleague as simply an admin assistant and not a qualified pilot!
If the weather or the approach is demanding then in some cases it would be foolish for a F/O to fly that sector so it makes sense for the Capt to operate that one but when conditions permit the F/O to operate then I still can't see the problem when the F/O asks what sectors the Capt wants to do!
No doubt my comments will seem harsh to some but we are in the 21st century and attitudes should reflect this without undermining the total authority of the commander.
It does, as they say, take two to "tango" but the granting of any aircraft handling by the Captain is a privilege and not a right!
That said, notwithstanding different airline policies, a good Captain will grant handling to the F/O so that the latter can keep in flying practice and also be coached for the job of Captain.
However it is my view that the F/O must be able to do the non-flying role satisfactorily before being able to conduct a sector him/herself.
If I am flying with a new F/O (especially with low hours), I want to assess his capability BEFORE allowing him/her to fly a sector. This means that I am not going to decide when and if he/she will fly a sector until the time is right!
If you want to upset your Captain from the word "go" then ask him early on which sector you are going to fly! This question presumes that you will be allowed any handling at all. Remember the Captain has overall responsibility for the flight and he/she will have safety as a prime consideration.
Regarding fuel, well it's fine for the F/O to get in early and think about what he/she would take but it is NOT his/her decision.
As a training captain years ago I checked in for a flight to Madeira (Cat C airport, short runway, then) and the bright eyed bushy tailed F/O (ex Harriers) had discovered we could tanker fuel and had calculated the fuel to land at Max Landing Weight - he had not given the performance considerations any real thought. I bit my tongue and quietly acquainted him with the facts! If I had gone in with "guns blazing" it would have set the wrong tone from the start of the working day and dampened his enthusiasm for the job.
However, I do think these types of issue point to lack of comprehensive line training.
That said, notwithstanding different airline policies, a good Captain will grant handling to the F/O so that the latter can keep in flying practice and also be coached for the job of Captain.
However it is my view that the F/O must be able to do the non-flying role satisfactorily before being able to conduct a sector him/herself.
If I am flying with a new F/O (especially with low hours), I want to assess his capability BEFORE allowing him/her to fly a sector. This means that I am not going to decide when and if he/she will fly a sector until the time is right!
If you want to upset your Captain from the word "go" then ask him early on which sector you are going to fly! This question presumes that you will be allowed any handling at all. Remember the Captain has overall responsibility for the flight and he/she will have safety as a prime consideration.
Regarding fuel, well it's fine for the F/O to get in early and think about what he/she would take but it is NOT his/her decision.
As a training captain years ago I checked in for a flight to Madeira (Cat C airport, short runway, then) and the bright eyed bushy tailed F/O (ex Harriers) had discovered we could tanker fuel and had calculated the fuel to land at Max Landing Weight - he had not given the performance considerations any real thought. I bit my tongue and quietly acquainted him with the facts! If I had gone in with "guns blazing" it would have set the wrong tone from the start of the working day and dampened his enthusiasm for the job.
However, I do think these types of issue point to lack of comprehensive line training.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fireflybob
However, I do think these types of issue point to lack of comprehensive line training.
PP