Italian ATC the absolute pits
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Italian ATC the absolute pits
My commercial flying experience is I have to say largely limited to Europe and I dare say there are some atrocious third world experiences to be relayed.......however...........
Am I alone in observing that much of Italian ATC seems to be made up on the spot and often bears little resemblance to internationaly accepted procedures or indeed published charts.....?
Every time I go there, there always seems to be some new treat in store.
Just some recent examples from Milan, Verona and Pisa.
Clearance to a point not on any published STAR. Apparently those who go there regularly know it......
"You are cleared to the approach"...........(No approach specified,no closing heading, no runway stipulation)
After cocking up his vectoring and taking us through the loc............ATC"Are you visual? (cloud base 300 feet ) NO? "OK so you position for another approach".............Us"Are you clearing us to the procedure?" .............ATC"Affirm"...........Us "confirm that you want us to self position for a procedural aproach to RWY....." ATC "affirm"...........Subsequently Luigi gave us a succession of vectors to establish on the reciprocal runway ILS!!!
Given instructions to take up the hold for absolutely no clear reason and no help given with any clue as to an approach time. It subsequently transpired that a routine runway inspection was taking place with a delay of no more than five minutes.....Urgent fuel and div calculations thereby rendered totally unnecessary. No sooner in the hold than "you are cleared to the approach......."
Apron taxi instructions at Pisa given by a succession of completely unrecognisable hand signals and, to take the biscuit, signal to indicate ground equipment and chocks clear............hands in pockets and a shrug of the shoulders coupled with some rapid gum chewing. In the end,the stand off finished when tower rang this ape on his mobile phone and told him why I was not moving.
Generally, delivery of instructions and clearances are made rapidly, in poor english coupled with a "couldn't give a damn if you dont understand" attitude..............
I hate flying in Italy...........Anyone else agree?
Am I alone in observing that much of Italian ATC seems to be made up on the spot and often bears little resemblance to internationaly accepted procedures or indeed published charts.....?
Every time I go there, there always seems to be some new treat in store.
Just some recent examples from Milan, Verona and Pisa.
Clearance to a point not on any published STAR. Apparently those who go there regularly know it......
"You are cleared to the approach"...........(No approach specified,no closing heading, no runway stipulation)
After cocking up his vectoring and taking us through the loc............ATC"Are you visual? (cloud base 300 feet ) NO? "OK so you position for another approach".............Us"Are you clearing us to the procedure?" .............ATC"Affirm"...........Us "confirm that you want us to self position for a procedural aproach to RWY....." ATC "affirm"...........Subsequently Luigi gave us a succession of vectors to establish on the reciprocal runway ILS!!!
Given instructions to take up the hold for absolutely no clear reason and no help given with any clue as to an approach time. It subsequently transpired that a routine runway inspection was taking place with a delay of no more than five minutes.....Urgent fuel and div calculations thereby rendered totally unnecessary. No sooner in the hold than "you are cleared to the approach......."
Apron taxi instructions at Pisa given by a succession of completely unrecognisable hand signals and, to take the biscuit, signal to indicate ground equipment and chocks clear............hands in pockets and a shrug of the shoulders coupled with some rapid gum chewing. In the end,the stand off finished when tower rang this ape on his mobile phone and told him why I was not moving.
Generally, delivery of instructions and clearances are made rapidly, in poor english coupled with a "couldn't give a damn if you dont understand" attitude..............
I hate flying in Italy...........Anyone else agree?
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I totally agree - many occasions of unbelievably poor ATC in many Italian airports. Pisa also scoring highly on the shame chart! Last time there ,after a particularly trying turnaround, the icing on the cake was confirmation of our airborne time (still dont know why they do this) and instruction to contact the next frequency whilst my hand was still on the gear knob to retract the gear!!
I know we all could post many experiences of what we perceive as ATC inadequacies - not by any means limited to Italy - however such is my feeling that their ATC is particularly dire I was tempted to start a thread myself.
I know we all could post many experiences of what we perceive as ATC inadequacies - not by any means limited to Italy - however such is my feeling that their ATC is particularly dire I was tempted to start a thread myself.
Italian air traffic controllers seem to know the exact vertical performance limits of the type you are flying and then (deliberately!?) put you right on the edge of those limits to see whether you are up to making it!
Nothing seems to have changed in 20 years then?
Nothing seems to have changed in 20 years then?
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Totally agree, Italian ATC horrendous.
Got stuck the other day with Milan (I think) trying to get approval to avoid nasty CB but controller gabbling away at great length to a pal in Italian..........judging by the jockularity of exchange, nothing much to do with Air traffic control. In the end took my own avoiding action which then resulted in an RA.
Upon being advised of this "Roger" says controller and starts chatting to his mate again.........
The trouble is that despite making your blood boil just about every time I never bother to file.........because what do they care?
I guess if enough of us did then maybe it might make a difference.
For those of us who have had really nasty situations where ATC has been our greatest friend the last place on earth I would want to have trouble is with one of these jokers on air. I doubt if some would even know the meaning of "Mayday"
Got stuck the other day with Milan (I think) trying to get approval to avoid nasty CB but controller gabbling away at great length to a pal in Italian..........judging by the jockularity of exchange, nothing much to do with Air traffic control. In the end took my own avoiding action which then resulted in an RA.
Upon being advised of this "Roger" says controller and starts chatting to his mate again.........
The trouble is that despite making your blood boil just about every time I never bother to file.........because what do they care?
I guess if enough of us did then maybe it might make a difference.
For those of us who have had really nasty situations where ATC has been our greatest friend the last place on earth I would want to have trouble is with one of these jokers on air. I doubt if some would even know the meaning of "Mayday"
First 3 attempts into Italian airfields ended in ATC related ASRs. Funny that upto then overflying Italy I found the enroute ATC friendly and helpful, and would have rated them highly. I feel that the way terminal area operations are organised make the terminal controllers jobs almost impossible.
RTO-if they did that to me I would taxi off of the runway, slot or no slot, unless they give you extra time to sit there and study the SID, tune in a VOR or LOC freq for the DME etc. We are still responsible for any turns and altitude restrictions.
Stilton, much of the time, operations people in our numerous cities never answer (hear) the radio after we land. Planes in our largest fleet have 100-122 seats, and either the radios are not considered important, or the people are all working at another plane, or having a smoke outside. Sometimes in Newark (EWR), it takes two or three calls to have them relay a logbook write-up to a mechanic/engineer.
Stilton, much of the time, operations people in our numerous cities never answer (hear) the radio after we land. Planes in our largest fleet have 100-122 seats, and either the radios are not considered important, or the people are all working at another plane, or having a smoke outside. Sometimes in Newark (EWR), it takes two or three calls to have them relay a logbook write-up to a mechanic/engineer.
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I hate flying in Italy...........Anyone else agree?
be prepared
standby to be entertained
what excitement will they generate this time
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The same here,Nigel....
Every time there is a lot of fun going there,even at FCO
Rwy change over 80% of the time on the last turn to capture the loc...I guess you'd better brief the other rwy that the one you've been told it's in use by the app.
Some time ago,while landing on 16R ,we were asked to vacate second to the left (AE if I rmember corectly) ,not he usual AD. While vacating the rwy I just looked to my left and saw another plane vacating the rwy on AD,parallel with us...
It just landed behind us,while we were still on the rwy centreline,decelerating..It doesn't feel very safe to me..
Every time there is a lot of fun going there,even at FCO
Rwy change over 80% of the time on the last turn to capture the loc...I guess you'd better brief the other rwy that the one you've been told it's in use by the app.
Some time ago,while landing on 16R ,we were asked to vacate second to the left (AE if I rmember corectly) ,not he usual AD. While vacating the rwy I just looked to my left and saw another plane vacating the rwy on AD,parallel with us...
It just landed behind us,while we were still on the rwy centreline,decelerating..It doesn't feel very safe to me..
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Lucky me - I speak English (at an acceptable level) and Italian.
Often flying regulars ALL-FCO/PAR-CAT/BOL-CAG. Some places are worse than others. Extensive use of non standard language.
Funny procedures together with poor radar makes them mess our descents. Getting into PAR (Parma) they usually send us into the hold at 6000' or above. Try to cancel IFR and get into the place visually - no chance. First had to report in the holding inbound...
... then finally got cancellation and dropped the plane (in a very safe way) to 1'500 ' AGL for a nice visual. He, he one can do that in an empty Cargo ATR 72...
Other day got stuck in Ciampino. None of the 7 planes asking for the reason the airport was closed after an accident got an answer. I then asked in italian and got the full information available.
Want to enjoy flying in Italy? - Learn italian
and try to figure out why they sometimes do funny things. (Most often has to do with poor radar, therefore they have silly high vectoring minimas)
Often flying regulars ALL-FCO/PAR-CAT/BOL-CAG. Some places are worse than others. Extensive use of non standard language.
Funny procedures together with poor radar makes them mess our descents. Getting into PAR (Parma) they usually send us into the hold at 6000' or above. Try to cancel IFR and get into the place visually - no chance. First had to report in the holding inbound...
... then finally got cancellation and dropped the plane (in a very safe way) to 1'500 ' AGL for a nice visual. He, he one can do that in an empty Cargo ATR 72...
Other day got stuck in Ciampino. None of the 7 planes asking for the reason the airport was closed after an accident got an answer. I then asked in italian and got the full information available.
Want to enjoy flying in Italy? - Learn italian
and try to figure out why they sometimes do funny things. (Most often has to do with poor radar, therefore they have silly high vectoring minimas)
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A little bit off-topic, but since we are already in the mediterranean region: "What do you think about Greek ATC?"
Wouldn't it be fun to start a poll best/worst ATCOs in Europe?
Wouldn't it be fun to start a poll best/worst ATCOs in Europe?
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If you are preparing for ILS approach at Malpensa and the ATIS says it's 35 R for landing, you better prepare for 35 L.
Happened many times to us when we were approaching outer marker and had been told to use the parallel runway!
Happened many times to us when we were approaching outer marker and had been told to use the parallel runway!
Autobrake wrote:
Sheikh wrote:
My experience at Rimini put both these comments together. I had a Fire Warning on t/o, called "Mayday" and got "...aaroger... your takeoff time 31 contacta the approach..."
A few years ago, I grant you, but things don't seem to have changed much!
Last time there ,after a particularly trying turnaround, the icing on the cake was confirmation of our airborne time (still dont know why they do this)
I doubt if some would even know the meaning of "Mayday"
A few years ago, I grant you, but things don't seem to have changed much!
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After being handed over from swiss to Padova........"ahh ***283 stop descent at FL270....." as we were passing FL255, I pressed alt hold as the capt verified our present level....the response was.."ahh is noo problem...desend FL250..and advise when ready for descent"
arrrrrrrgggghhh!
I just laugh now.....put TCAS on the largest range scale..and keep a VERY good lookout.
arrrrrrrgggghhh!I just laugh now.....put TCAS on the largest range scale..and keep a VERY good lookout.
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I started this topic because I personally feel very uncomfortable about the lack of professionalism and lethal disservice that Italian air traffic authorities provide.
Judging from your responses, a lot of us who fly into Italy feel very unhappy and, joking aside, these guys are playing with our lives and those of our pax.
There is one hell of a story here if one of you journos who cruise through these pages cares to grab it. Send me a PM and let's expose these guys before they cause a major accident.
The bottom line is that those who fly into Italy are taking risks that are completely unacceptable.
Judging from your responses, a lot of us who fly into Italy feel very unhappy and, joking aside, these guys are playing with our lives and those of our pax.
There is one hell of a story here if one of you journos who cruise through these pages cares to grab it. Send me a PM and let's expose these guys before they cause a major accident.
The bottom line is that those who fly into Italy are taking risks that are completely unacceptable.
The SAS MD87 disaster in Malpensa comes to mind.
http://www.sk686.org/Doc/haverirappo...T%20A-1-04.pdf
I believe the responsible ATC staff and management were sentenced to jail due to gross misconduct.
http://www.sk686.org/Doc/haverirappo...T%20A-1-04.pdf
I believe the responsible ATC staff and management were sentenced to jail due to gross misconduct.
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I am sure that we are all guilty of not filing ASRs when strictly we should have done. There is the overwhelming desire to get home after a trip and the attraction of sitting down to form fill in your own time and at your own expense is not immediately obvious, plus, very often ..........what difference will it make anyway?......It will come back with the usual "low risk" categorisation and nothing happens as a result.
I feel sufficiently strongly about these appalling people to now operate a policy of zero tolerence and will now file every time plus tick the MOR box (for those not of the faith, this is the "Mandatory occurence report" which has to be passed on to the CAA)
Lets all do the same.
I feel sufficiently strongly about these appalling people to now operate a policy of zero tolerence and will now file every time plus tick the MOR box (for those not of the faith, this is the "Mandatory occurence report" which has to be passed on to the CAA)
Lets all do the same.