Captains flying with Captains - Cockpit Authority Gradient
We are doing it quite a lot in our company (bmi) at the moment as we are little over crewed with skippers. (the company's judgement, not mine I might add!) We also did it quite a bit in the early days of the airbus fleet when we had more Captains checked out than FO's. I contrast to what everyone else seems to be saying I have never found it a problem and always found it a pleasant, stress free day out. I admit that I have never had to deal with as serious problem whilst doing so but again I don't see it as a issue. The guy who signs the tech. log is the captain and we normally swap seats and command half way through the day. If you are professional about it's not a big deal at all. The only people who perhaps don't like it are the ego merchants.
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During on of my last FAM's both pilots were Captains (the one in the right seat was senior but filling in for a sick FO). I was impressed during the pre-brief that when they discussed if an emergency occured that the Left Seat Captain would fly the airplane, and the Right Seat Captain would handle the emergency, radios, and check list.
Everything was pre-planned, and professionally done. The key is to establish the procedures in advanced to prevent problems during the flight, should Mr. Murphy decide to make an appearance.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Everything was pre-planned, and professionally done. The key is to establish the procedures in advanced to prevent problems during the flight, should Mr. Murphy decide to make an appearance.
Mike
NATCA FWA
We fly with 2 captains alot of the time. Most of our captains are qualified in both seats and it makes life much easier and pleasant. Every one knows their duties and sticks to them, there are no egos to satisfy and no one trying to prove them selves.
It is a good idea that makes life much more pleasant if the company culture is right for it.
It is a good idea that makes life much more pleasant if the company culture is right for it.
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Either You Are The Captain In Charge, Or You Are Not...
According to our SOPs: For every flight there is only one (1) designated captain in the cockpit who has ultimate command authority and responsibility. This operational designation is not debatable and it has no bearing on whether or not another more senior or more experienced captain is assigned to fly in the right seat. 
I agree with glueball. There is always a designated captain. Only trouble is, today I flew with another training captain and neither of us had enough hands on practice on the FMS to use it properly and take less than many goes to get it right!
I revise my earlier statement and now think a descent co-pilot should always be carried if only to work the FMS.
However I still think the most valuable flight deck member is a proper hairy old flight engineer!
Looking at the past though rose tinted specs.
MM
I revise my earlier statement and now think a descent co-pilot should always be carried if only to work the FMS.
However I still think the most valuable flight deck member is a proper hairy old flight engineer!
Looking at the past though rose tinted specs.
MM
Max Angle, maybe a slip of the typo on your part but "The guy who signs the tech. log is the captain..." - I was under the impression that it was the operator who specified who the aicraft commander was - ie whoever's name is in the "Commander" column on sign in is precisely that - the Commander.
Cabin crew can unwittingly get confused when two four ringers are flying together (ask any Training Captain) but it should be made clear to them in training that there is only ONE commander on the a/c.
Captains flying together tends to be less than ideal and Training Captains flying together can be even less ideal!
Cabin crew can unwittingly get confused when two four ringers are flying together (ask any Training Captain) but it should be made clear to them in training that there is only ONE commander on the a/c.
Captains flying together tends to be less than ideal and Training Captains flying together can be even less ideal!
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Folks,
When two captains fly together, the most difficult task befalls the person designated as the FO.
It is he/she who must pack up the ego and the "must be in charge" tendencies and devote all his/her skills to being the best FO with whom the Captain could hope to be rostered. That person must ensure that he/she does everything to ensure that there is no confusion on anyone's part as to who the operator has designated as PIC.
The next most difficult task is for the designated PIC to understand that the person acting as FO is in an unfamiliar environment doing things that he/she normally only supervises and therefore a double dose of patience and vigilance is required.
Instead of banning the practice, I would advocate making it mandatory - it is great for self-awareness, humility and self-discipline. Don't avoid the difficulties - do it to ensure that you do not become the problem!!!!
Stay Alive,
When two captains fly together, the most difficult task befalls the person designated as the FO.
It is he/she who must pack up the ego and the "must be in charge" tendencies and devote all his/her skills to being the best FO with whom the Captain could hope to be rostered. That person must ensure that he/she does everything to ensure that there is no confusion on anyone's part as to who the operator has designated as PIC.
The next most difficult task is for the designated PIC to understand that the person acting as FO is in an unfamiliar environment doing things that he/she normally only supervises and therefore a double dose of patience and vigilance is required.
Instead of banning the practice, I would advocate making it mandatory - it is great for self-awareness, humility and self-discipline. Don't avoid the difficulties - do it to ensure that you do not become the problem!!!!
Stay Alive,
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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It always helps if the RHS four-striper puts on 2 (ok, then, 3 
) - it sets the scene for the rest of the crew and ground staff and helps with the 'mental conditioning' for the RHS. iIt is a nice touch and helps the 'gradient' considerably from the outset.
) - it sets the scene for the rest of the crew and ground staff and helps with the 'mental conditioning' for the RHS. iIt is a nice touch and helps the 'gradient' considerably from the outset.
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Where I work it happens from time to time that CDR's are flying together. If it's planned from the beginning. The guy with the highest seniority gets the left seat. On the other hand, if there is no F/O available due to eg. a sick F/O, and no other F/O's available to replace him, the captain who is called on sby gets the R/H seat, and functions as a F/O regardless of seniority -even if this is the chiefpilot himself.
I have been a captain for seven yrs, and have no difficulties to have a more senior colleague as F/O. Nor do I have any problems
to serve as a F/O to a less senior captain.
In a situation if I as a CDR is making a bad decision, I expect the
F/O to correct me. I will not "loose face". I would rather greet him for doing his job.
In my world, this is what CRM is all about.
Likevise, when I read flight occurency reports, I try to learn from
other people's mistakes. Not condemn the guys involved.
Blue skies!
I have been a captain for seven yrs, and have no difficulties to have a more senior colleague as F/O. Nor do I have any problems
to serve as a F/O to a less senior captain.
In a situation if I as a CDR is making a bad decision, I expect the
F/O to correct me. I will not "loose face". I would rather greet him for doing his job.
In my world, this is what CRM is all about.
Likevise, when I read flight occurency reports, I try to learn from
other people's mistakes. Not condemn the guys involved.
Blue skies!
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I am a check-captain and instructor...
Therefore often happens that I operate as the F/O on some flights.
xxx
My personal preference is to give a line check (or simulator check) from a jump seat, rather that occupying a position as required crewmember. I see differences with some captains having "a real" F/O, or in having me occupying the RH seat...
xxx
Probably psychological... honest, no difference for me.
Since I am management, I am not on regular flight crew roster, and I am permanently "reserve"... so I accept any flight given, rather than flying a desk in the office, or bored to be home. And I know that many captains do request me to go along with them if their favorite F/Os are not available...
xxx
I am lucky if I fly one or two trips per month...
And I even ask to make a landing as well... Rusty old fart here...
xxx
Happy contrails
Therefore often happens that I operate as the F/O on some flights.
xxx
My personal preference is to give a line check (or simulator check) from a jump seat, rather that occupying a position as required crewmember. I see differences with some captains having "a real" F/O, or in having me occupying the RH seat...
xxx
Probably psychological... honest, no difference for me.
Since I am management, I am not on regular flight crew roster, and I am permanently "reserve"... so I accept any flight given, rather than flying a desk in the office, or bored to be home. And I know that many captains do request me to go along with them if their favorite F/Os are not available...
xxx
I am lucky if I fly one or two trips per month...
And I even ask to make a landing as well... Rusty old fart here...
xxx
Happy contrails
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Likewise, as with PK above, always prefered to administer line checks from the obs seat.
Could always get the true picture from there...and could renew line qualification for the Capt and First Officer on the same series of flights.
Much more efficient....and a friendlier atmosphere.
Occasionally, if the roster allowed three (or more) flights in one day) two check Captains and a First Officer would be rostered for these.
Presto...three line checks done.
Could always get the true picture from there...and could renew line qualification for the Capt and First Officer on the same series of flights.
Much more efficient....and a friendlier atmosphere.
Occasionally, if the roster allowed three (or more) flights in one day) two check Captains and a First Officer would be rostered for these.
Presto...three line checks done.
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I recall a bad situation while I was captain (and handling pilot) of a 737 descending towards a tiny Pacific island at night. It was really black. I was undergoing a scheduled route check. The check pilot (from the Sub-Continent) on the jump seat decided that he wished to occupy the RH seat for the instrument approach and landing.
Accordingly the first officer swapped seats and the man with the turban strapped in to the right seat. He requested that I demonstrate an NDB approach.
Our airline used standard Boeing 737 SOP which required the aircraft to be configured at flap 5 and 170 knots by the time we arrived over the NDB for the first time.
At 210 knots clean and one minute to overhead I called for flap 1 on the way to the flap 5 config. To my dismay the turbanned one said "No, No, you are taking the flaps too early".
At the instant of my call I had airspeed bleeding just below 210 knots at idle thrust clean, in anticipation of my request for flap1 being executed without delay. I again called for flap 1 only to be countermanded by the PNF check pilot who repeated in an irritable manner that it was too early to configure.
I hastily reached across and selected the flap lever myself while throttling up to stop further airspeed bleed. While there was no danger of any more bleeding airspeed, nevertheless I was taken aback at my request for flap extension being countermanded by the PNF check pilot while it was I who held full command responsibility for the flight.
The incident was disturbing and harsh words were exchanged between us. The rest of the approach proceeded with a marked hostility between our two cultures.
After landing I wrote a report on the matter of check pilot and command responsibilities.
The next day, I was told to present myself to the chief pilot's office and lo and behold the turbanned one was in the chair. I was informed that I had failed my route check.
When I asked on what specific point did I "fail" the check, the turbanned one said "How can I pass you on the route check when you write a letter like that criticising me?"...
I was staggered to say the least and asked what I would have to do to "pass" the route check again. The chief pilot replied "Just tear up your report and you pass"..
Two captains together in the same cockpit is not always a good thing - and definately a bad thing if there are two cultures involved.
Accordingly the first officer swapped seats and the man with the turban strapped in to the right seat. He requested that I demonstrate an NDB approach.
Our airline used standard Boeing 737 SOP which required the aircraft to be configured at flap 5 and 170 knots by the time we arrived over the NDB for the first time.
At 210 knots clean and one minute to overhead I called for flap 1 on the way to the flap 5 config. To my dismay the turbanned one said "No, No, you are taking the flaps too early".
At the instant of my call I had airspeed bleeding just below 210 knots at idle thrust clean, in anticipation of my request for flap1 being executed without delay. I again called for flap 1 only to be countermanded by the PNF check pilot who repeated in an irritable manner that it was too early to configure.
I hastily reached across and selected the flap lever myself while throttling up to stop further airspeed bleed. While there was no danger of any more bleeding airspeed, nevertheless I was taken aback at my request for flap extension being countermanded by the PNF check pilot while it was I who held full command responsibility for the flight.
The incident was disturbing and harsh words were exchanged between us. The rest of the approach proceeded with a marked hostility between our two cultures.
After landing I wrote a report on the matter of check pilot and command responsibilities.
The next day, I was told to present myself to the chief pilot's office and lo and behold the turbanned one was in the chair. I was informed that I had failed my route check.
When I asked on what specific point did I "fail" the check, the turbanned one said "How can I pass you on the route check when you write a letter like that criticising me?"...
I was staggered to say the least and asked what I would have to do to "pass" the route check again. The chief pilot replied "Just tear up your report and you pass"..
Two captains together in the same cockpit is not always a good thing - and definately a bad thing if there are two cultures involved.
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Hudson,
Oddly enough, SQ had one of 'those' (altho without the required headress) in the very late seventies, and he was passed over for fleet advancement for just such nonsense.
Actually, SQ did the deed interestingly enough, they just quickly lowered the maximum age for fleet upgrade, then reinstated same after he was permanently ah...gone.
He complained bitterly of course, but it was he own undoing.
Easy come...easier 'go'.
Oddly enough, SQ had one of 'those' (altho without the required headress) in the very late seventies, and he was passed over for fleet advancement for just such nonsense.
Actually, SQ did the deed interestingly enough, they just quickly lowered the maximum age for fleet upgrade, then reinstated same after he was permanently ah...gone.
He complained bitterly of course, but it was he own undoing.
Easy come...easier 'go'.
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Captains with Captains is always a sticky issue within an airline environment.
Where we operate we have a large number of captains from many varied parts of the world and the experiences of flying with several have been amusing to say the least.
Bad Examples:
After day 2 of a 7 day trip one captain was at the point of killing the other due to his poor procedural adherence. (the poor one later jumped before he was pushed).
Non attentive attitude by two “mates” who had not flown together in 15+ years, missed calls and the such, however they did enjoy the time.
One captain caught up on about 4 months sleep during a co-captain stint according to the others report.
Cultural differences played a big part where one European “work orientated” captain was dismayed by the Latin “Social orientated” captain putting pleasure before work.
Good Examples:
Positive outlook by both crew members, highly experienced and when the faeces and fan met the handled the situation impeccably where the capabilities of some of our FO’s would have been lacking.
Opportunity to escape from the norm. Days where you fly leg for leg switching seats and enjoying the experience of learning something as opposed to “teaching” something.
Many other instances however these are more a social nature, as an expat in a foreign land it is sometimes hard to catch up with “the boys” when people are rostered all over the place.
My thoughts are that there is the good with the bad and crewing needs to roster people of the same ilk to get a good result and avoid cultural or attitudinal problems.
Where we operate we have a large number of captains from many varied parts of the world and the experiences of flying with several have been amusing to say the least.
Bad Examples:
After day 2 of a 7 day trip one captain was at the point of killing the other due to his poor procedural adherence. (the poor one later jumped before he was pushed).
Non attentive attitude by two “mates” who had not flown together in 15+ years, missed calls and the such, however they did enjoy the time.
One captain caught up on about 4 months sleep during a co-captain stint according to the others report.
Cultural differences played a big part where one European “work orientated” captain was dismayed by the Latin “Social orientated” captain putting pleasure before work.
Good Examples:
Positive outlook by both crew members, highly experienced and when the faeces and fan met the handled the situation impeccably where the capabilities of some of our FO’s would have been lacking.
Opportunity to escape from the norm. Days where you fly leg for leg switching seats and enjoying the experience of learning something as opposed to “teaching” something.
Many other instances however these are more a social nature, as an expat in a foreign land it is sometimes hard to catch up with “the boys” when people are rostered all over the place.
My thoughts are that there is the good with the bad and crewing needs to roster people of the same ilk to get a good result and avoid cultural or attitudinal problems.
