As of saturday,its still at MME.The damage doesnt look too bad but its the bits you cant see that do the damage.After talking to an engineer they are awaiting a permit to fly and it will go to Amsterdam for repair by KLM,at least it should be OK after that!!

Oh and besides the Ground engineers probably did their walkaround at 3am in the morning in pitch black dark on a clod ramp after being on night shift for a few days....

been there done that..

as H721 says nobody os perfect but we are all certainly human ;)

Cheers
MB

Hi all,
listen Meatbomber,
I do not, and never have accepted these stories about the lateness of the hour and the bad weather, and the multiple late shifts involved.
We (I), also have to do a 100% job, during decent and approach after a 12hour flight, at 3am, in bad weather, and I expect EVERYBODY to do that - no excuses, no mistakes, we can't afford them!
When the Flight Engineer does his walkaround, prior to the second leg of a late-night, bad weather flight, I expect the aircraft external to be thoughly inspected, and if anything warrants closer inspection, I expect the FE to talk to the right people to get that done, to his satisfaction, or the Captain gets to hear about it, so he can make a decision - all this has to happen every time, regardless!
There is to much at stake here, half truths and half done jobs are not welcome, and not acceptable!

Cheers.
(This subject really gets me going!)

engineers walk-round...
 

Just a small point here .... with the exception of the wrc prior to the first flight of the day, there are no further wrcs carried out by engineers for the rest of the day... at our shorthaul company anyway ;)

Flight Detent, can I ask:
have you ever made a mistake in your flying career, and if so did you get to choose when you made it? I assume not as you seem to have such high expectations of everybody else...

Flight detent. I would agree that the crew have an essential task every time they put a plane back down on the ground, it has to be done properly every time, time and time again. I would ask you however to consider the external surface area of say, a Boeing 777-300. with my operator, the Licensed Engineer is expected to make a quote " general visual inspection " and this is from the ground, during the day or night. I cannot reasonably be expected to view the upper half of the fuselage from about the floor line upwards, the top of the wings and horizontal stabiliser, let alone the fin and the fuselage crown area ! Often, cracks will appear out of eye sight ( Hawiian B732 ? ) both internally and externally. To examine every square inch of my company types would take me a lifetime and is wholly impractical. At night, obviously with only a torch, the task is further complicated. A walkaround check can only ever be a sample inspection unless the aircraft is perhaps GA and the preflight time available is unlimited. Most experienced ground engineers who are fairly conversant with their own types know instinctively where to look for problems and this in practice works well. I have never viewed with suspicion another pair of eyes walking behind me, in fact I would welcome it but to compare a pilot's work in the approach and mine during a walkround is like comparing apples to oranges . . I think you will find that most Licensed Engineers take their task very seriously indeed !

We're straying off the subject a bit here, but the discussion is moving along in a useful manner anyway. Maintenance Departments perform detailed structural inspections in the hangar, in accordance with the maintenance schedule. In critical areas specialised equipment is used, mostly die penetrant and eddy current but sometimes more detailed methods such as thermal imaging tomography or deep X-ray for example. Walkrounds are another matter - a general look around for obvious signs of trouble. Quite often people discover very serious defects on walkrounds but that isn't the objective. When a crew member discovers a serious defect it is only natural to slag off the lazy good-for-nothing grease monkies for not doing a proper job, but that is over simplification. It can be just a matter of how the light catches things.

I recall one engineer who spotted a cracked Main Landing Gear Trunnion in the dark, in the most difficult conditions imaginable using the Mk 1 eyeball and a Maglite. When the aircraft was taken to the hangar, nothing could be seen until the part had been cleaned with solvent and a die penetrant check made. Changing the trunnion took three days and, while the engineer concerned is to be congratulated for his vigilance, it was really a matter of luck that the crack happened to be visible from a specific viewpoint at a particular time and place. The crack was invisible half an hour later, in good light, in the hangar, to engineers who were aware of its presence and location. People do not overlook cracks or other defects on purpose, there are hundreds of ways that a problem can be missed, even by the most dedicated among us.

So, lets all keep our eyes peeled, check and double check and make flying as safe as we possibly can. Designers or Maintainers, Manufacturers or Operators, Aircrew or Groundcrew, we all play our part and all work together to the same end. Please, lets not descend into slagging off each others professionalism. It isn't professional.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Blacksheep, thanks for putting it so eloquently ! A slanging match is the last thing anyones needs but to again answer, to BIK_116.80, my point exactly. The origin of the crack, being so high, I beleive it is unreasonable for any one to expect this to be seen in it's early stages of propogation from ground level. Hangar inspections are a totally different animal from the walkround on the ramp . . .

Also in defence of ground engineers, I recollect damage being noticed on a windmilling fan by the young gnd. eng. :cool: after the FE & I had failed to notice it :o

Hey Flight detent, never heard of Human Factors then?

:(

Not to mention that the damage that started this thread was the result of a flying accident, rather than a ground engineer overlooking a crack, eh spanners?

Whatever, the damage will be repaired by an airline engineering department (KLM) who will make their usual efficient and workmanlike job of it. They might even call in Uncle Bill Boeing to help...

...or maybe not. ;)

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Through difficulties to the cinema

Back in the 70's big airways had a 747 G-AWNE which had a tail scrape landing in the gulf The flight engineer and the ground engineer both missed the 20ft scrape, the missing water drain
mast,and the various holes. It was only when they couldn't pressurize on the next sector that they realised something was wrong!

For information purposes, TF-ATD has left Teeside as of 1400z today for Amsterdam, to be repaired at KLM.

Its Gone!
 

The bent 747 which I had got sed to using as a landmark for Teesside has now gone. Amsterdam was the first stop. Most of us thought after the tailscape it would never go anywhere but round in circles!!

:D ;) :p :eek: