For my benefit...the quote:
"I do agree with the idea of reducing carbon emissions but the way EU has come up..."

Help me here, how does forcing the airlines to pay multi-millions of dollars per year help in reducing carbon emissions?

Cheers...

If generating emissions costs money, airlines, being businesses, will try to reduce that cost. In theory this could be by buying more efficient planes, or putting more effort into getting more efficient airspace & routes. However, I believe the scheme is based on "tonne-kilometres", there appears to be no advantages in investing in more efficient planes.

Also, it's trying to create a carbon economy. Take someone in a different industry saves carbon emissions. This means that they will be using up less than their quota, so they can sell their extra quota to airlines to use. This means they will be able to make money by reducing their own emissions. This all depends on how you calculate the "saving" and "quota" that they achieved.

Further to the point previously addressed, i would like to ask the *specific* question in relation the underlined (above)..

Why ?

On the simplest level, ETS is just fuel rationing. Limit the amount of fuel an airline starts the year with and it has three choices - fly less, use more efficient aircraft, or buy someone else's allowance.

This particular ETS has a number of features that European airlines don't like and non-European airlines loathe. First, the total 'pot' of allowances is the 2005 level minus 3% so it's about 20% less than today's business as usual - there's no way that carriers can avoid the 'buy' option.

Secondly, 15% of the allowances must be bought anyway, from the countries in the scheme. This money just goes straight into treasuries and exchequers and the non-EU countries see this as just a cash grab to prop up wonky economies and wonky currencies.

stuckgear: there are two kinds of people in the world – those who believe that CO2 influenced climate change may be happening and those who do not. In the context of this thread it matters not at all which side you are on, because we are discussing the consequences of policy decisions already taken.

The Delhi Declaration, in which 24 countries – including China, India, Russia, USA and Japan – condemned EU ETS, contained the following words:
But hey, maybe they are all wrong.

Not quite...

There is AT LEAST a third type who DO believe that CO2 affects climate change, but that the population is TOTALLY unwilling and unable to make enough change to make a difference in our lifetime or the foreseeable future after that. The ONLY way to reduce CO2 emissions enough to have ANY discernible effect on the climate is to STOP MAKING ALL THOSE CARBON- AND SULFUR-BELCHING BABIES!

With the current type of world economy (based on CONSUMPTION and EXPANSION), there is NO WAY to make a difference in our "carbon" output significant enough to affect any climate change it may be causing. We are polluting the world in more ways than one. Only reduction of consumption and waste via reduction in consumer population can make a difference.

All these other measures are ONLY guvvamint-induced "feel-good" measures and taxes.

[quote] Intruder

Not quite...

There is AT LEAST a third type who DO believe that CO2 affects climate change, but that the population is TOTALLY unwilling and unable to make enough change to make a difference in our lifetime or the foreseeable future after that. The ONLY way to reduce CO2 emissions enough to have ANY discernible effect on the climate is to STOP MAKING ALL THOSE CARBON- AND SULFUR-BELCHING BABIES!

With the current type of world economy (based on CONSUMPTION and EXPANSION), there is NO WAY to make a difference in our "carbon" output significant enough to affect any climate change it may be causing. We are polluting the world in more ways than one. Only reduction of consumption and waste via reduction in consumer population can make a difference. [quote]

:D:D:D

Unfortunately, that is the one fact no one wants to acknowledge. And is the root cause of so many other problems.

Yes Sir
Overpopulation and religion
cut both and we will live in a peaceful and cleaner world

India joined the party with their airlines today.

Corporate aviators are also hit hard by the ETS scheme. Operators are finding out that they are only receiving around 5% free allowances and are having to buy the other 95% for next April. The cost depending on the tonne price will run into tens of thousands of euros for some. Also, to receive the rubbish amount of allowances it is expected that Operators have to pay for two crb checks to gain access to the ETS trading system. How long will this madness continue ?

It will last until everyone contributes everything to the State based on their ability and the State distributes everything to everyone based on their need.

Sorry Bobnspike, can you clarify that statement please:confused:

I admit to a degree of hyperbole in that post. This one, too.

I do not have sufficient scientific background to comment on the validity of climate change.

I do have sufficient powers of observation to see the State(s) using climate change as a pretext to suck revenue from the private sector into the hands of the State, which, with its demonstrably impeccable decision making ability and altruistic motivation, alone is able to determine its proper distribution, or, more accurately: redistribution.

In simple terms it's an EU boondoggle.....

The problem with the current dispute is that the Chinese are hyper-sensitive about being "dictated to" by western countries

given their history you can see their point sometimes - Opium anyone?

Improve the health of nations and population growth will decrease massively within one generation. In 1971 women in Morroco had an average circa 8 children. Now that figure is about 2.5.

A business opportunity for Boeing to sell their fuel efficient aircraft and improve USoA's exports. Perhaps Airbus should do the same and for Europe!

Perhaps try and reduce journeys by air. Reduce the new business growth, get rid of the low cost operators who have introduced lower socio economic group travellers into the equation and return flying to what it was in the past. Restrain the business psychopaths-dominant males who lead us and wreak havoc. Control pilot entry levels and qualifications to a ' Royal College of Airline Pilots 'with peer group vetting. Flatten the 11 year cycle. Alas, all30 years too late. Good luck Koi

The Indians figured it out.....:ok:

India bans its airlines from paying EU carbon tax - Yahoo!7

Not very smart to bite the hand that feeds you......:ugh:

Any Tax is just another way to Screw things up . Carbon tax? Another rip off-It will never fix anything only harm everyone.