Was this story important enough to make the news in the UK? At least the "Europe" section of the bbc website say: Apparantly not.
Once again the airbuscentric press in this country; I should stop being so naive I suppose, the bbc after all do think there is only one plane in the world now the a380 has been born.

Well I think you'd droop a bit if you slammed into a concrete barrier nose first, crawled up the wall and burst through a wall!
More a Police thing than an Air Accident Investigation maybe? 3 serious injuries, and more a 'road accident' than a plane crash- it wasn't really a plane, more a self powered moving surface transport device.

Quite a lot can be salvaged. Wouldn't expect much from the electronics bay, but engines and engine parts, APU, aircon packs, wing, tail, flight control units, flight control surfaces, doors, seats, windows, galleys, flight recorder. Quite lucky no serious fuel leak.

The French BEA has launched an investigation :
http://www.bea-fr.org/anglaise/actualite/actu.htm

Indeed, ato - an amazing accident. I am stunned that the injuries (although serious) are as light as reported and that no-one died. I wish all a speedy recovery.

Rainboe,You'd be amazed....

:confused: Wasn't this advertised as a run-up pan? Is that the same concrete barrier that's 1,200 feet from the main runway.

Forget, it I give up. :hmm:

And your point is? You have this thing about concrete barriers. Do you know, there are places where they have buildings beside roads? And walls next to roads! It doesn't mean you should necessarily drive into them, or that they should be removed and replaced with water filled plastic walls.

Don't scratch the wall
http://aerotransport.free.fr/Zmisc/Etihad2.JPG
or face the consequences
http://aerotransport.free.fr/Zmisc/Etihad3.JPG

Rumour running in TLS indicate a/c was taxiing away from area AFTER the tests, person fell in cockpit on the pedestal , All this in conditional.

Heard from the Fire brigade :
Electrics severed, so at least one engine continued to run for hours ( I heard 7h mentioned ) after the accident until ran out of fuel.
3 of the 10 injured are still in hospital, fractures and bruises but not life threatening .That at least is good news.

In the above photograph(the one with the fire engine)is what appears to be a black stripe in the foreground and onto the wall.Is this evidence of an attempt at braking?Anti skid is deactivated at low speed so it may indicate a locked wheel.

You mean like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7098547.stm


I think it even made front page on the day. Still listed in the Europe section too.

It's not a rumour according to this article.

Sarcasm dear boy......

.....have been hearing people on the streets saying, well it seems obvious, but i feel i may have to point it put for you? that bbc love airbus. XXX

And we love Rojer Bacon. Bring him back! :D

Press cutting from the wires, for what it's worth

Toulouse accident occurred as Airbus A340 was exiting engine test-pen



Reuters, 20 November 2007


Airbus has told Etihad Airways that the A340-600 wrecked at Toulouse during pre-delivery checks had completed its engine test-runs and was exiting the test area at the time of the accident.
A spokesman for Etihad confirms that the aircraft has been written off.
Neither Airbus nor French investigation agency BEA has given further information about the circumstances of the accident.
But the Etihad spokesman says that Airbus has told the carrier that the engine test-run had already been completed beforehand, and that the A340 had been making its way out of the pen. The pen is located 500m southwest of a point lying about 1,000m along the length of Toulouse Blagnac Airport’s runway 32L.
The spokesman says: “The whole aircraft and its contents were insured by Airbus as the aircraft was operating under a temporary French registration [F-WWCJ] until 21 November when Etihad was set to have the aircraft delivered.”
But he says that the short-term impact on Etihad’s network arising from the loss of the aircraft is “not expected to be significant” because the A340 was initially due to act as a spare to cover heavy maintenance of the A340-600 fleet. Etihad has two of the type.

Nigel, old boy, I think we've hit a bloody wall.
You don't say. I do believe it's time to get off.
Oh by the way, just keep that engine running, we could use the run data.

:)

Pilots HAVE to see the humor in all things, else they wouldn't be pilots!

Serious A340-600 Question
 

I have seen the price £107 million quoted as the value of the hull.
How long does it take to actually build an A340-600?
When is the next vacant delivery slot?
Going to cost some loss of revenue refund I fear.
Why was it still at Tolouse first flown on 21 Sep 2007
Their first two c/n 829 F/F 4/5/2007 delivered 29/06/2007
c/n 837 F/F 1/8/2007 delivered 28/08/2007
Be lucky
David

AvgasDinosaur,How long is a piece of string?
You can say it ends with first flight, but where do you start?
With the arrival of the first section on the final assembly jigs?
With first metal being cut?
With the first purchase orders going out for long-lead items, that have the aircraft's number on it?
Work on some long-lead items may easily start a couple of years before.

Can't stop the engines!
 

An amazing thought had just crossed my mind. Imagine if the Iberia A340 runs off the end of the runway with full reverse thrust and the cockpit separates from the fuselage, as was the case in Toulouse.

This would certainly be a problem for evacuation, engines running with thrust both forward and aft direction and no way to stop them, as was the case in Toulouse. (they let the engine run the tank dry in order to stop).

Chances are good that they would suck up sand and dirt and stop, but the SAA flight, the engines were off the ground.

Food for thought!

A346 driver

Wheelchair
 

We were there in Toulouse airport waiting for the 18.30 BA flight to arrive. The relief crew were standing around. Talking to one of them we were told the plane was delayed due to "no ground fire cover". All the the commercial side fire trucks had gone across the runways to the A340 which was at a 30 degree angle opposite the windows to our departure lounge. Question, what fire cover does Toulouse have such that all the domestic side crews are required for a single incident on the production side of the airport?

ssd ponders: I don't think the problem is unique to Airbus; any aircraft has this potential. A colleague did a safety study on a military aircraft: What happens if the aircraft bellies in, pilot is incapacitated, engine(s) still running, inlets just behind the cockpit, how does the fire brigade shut down engines to rescue the pilot? :ugh:

Quote ChristiaanJ
That one will do for the purposes of my question.
Thanks for your time and trouble.
Be lucky
David

barit1,
Perfectly plausible scenario, too......
Did your colleague come up with any ideas worth passing on?
Always good to have a few ideas before it happens, rather than have to try and cope when it happens.

Direct two or three foam branches into the intake. That'll do the trick.

Fire trucks
 

I believe this scenario would have to be dealt with at the scene, by what ever emergency response vehicles arrive. That would be the fire trucks would have to blow maximum, water and foam through the intakes. But this related to size of water hose volume, the engine thrust setting at the time....., I suppose many problems to be considered.
There were no escape slides used to get ten people out of this mangled wreck. They were all bound for the ripped and gashed openings of a severed cockpit. More dangerous getting out, than being involved in the actual accident, so it seems.
I gather no one used a seat belt on the ground and the cockpit would have more than two people in it, but what about the rest of the engineers.
Lots of questions left in the open on this one!
I think the "what if" scenario just arrived.

Flight International's page has an update to the investigation:

Wrecked A340 was unchocked, with engines at high thrust: Investigators

:uhoh:

Having engines still running is a very real problem for occupants and rescue services alike. Even my old Volvo had a (beta I think it was called) signal to allow the fuel pump to run.

There would have to be a tipple system for each engine to duplicate such a feature, but since Gerona and now this, I believe it would be worth it.

An short update has been published by the BEA
http://www.bea-fr.org/francais/actua...m20071120.html

Rough translation:
The aircraft was stopped; wheels were not choked. A last engine test, with brakes, was ongoing. The first CVR/FDR data show that the four engines were at high power since approx 3 minutes. The aircraft started to move and hit a blast deflector thirteen seconds later [...].

I'm still trying to understand the typical way that these tests are run.

Is somebody always stitting in a seat prepared to handle an emergency like an unexpected release of the brakes?

Do we still accept yesterday's report of somebody falling over a pedastal?

13 sec seems like a long time if the guy in a typical command seat is able to reach the throttles and put a foot on a brake. I suppose that they might have been playing musical chairs at the time, I ve even seen this happen in flight by pure accident with both pilots standing up at the same time and running into each other. I'm still puzzled why any such abnormal situation couldn't be corrected in a reasonable amount of time.

My old Ford Taurus got rear-ended a dozen years ago - not much structural damage, but the impact tripped the G-switch that disabled the fuel pump.

As luck would have it, there was a Ford dealer right across the street so I consulted with them about how to reset it. :}

My guess is that the bird was experiencing a bit of clear air turbulence and the real movement was not recognized.

London buses have a little hatch outside at the back marked "Emergency Engine Stop" . . . . !

...from another pilot forum:
 

FROM : AIRBUS FLIGHT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE
SUBJECT: A340-600 - MSN 856 - ACCIDENT IN PRODUCTION OUR REF.: F-WWCJ AIT 2 DATED 20th OF NOVEMBER 2007 PREVIOUS REF: F-WWCJ AIT 1 DATED 16th OF NOVEMBER 2007

THIS AIT IS AN UPDATE OF PREVIOUS AIT N°1 CONCERNING THE A340-600 PRODUCTION AIRCRAFT MSN 856 INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT IN AIRBUS PRODUCTION FACILITIES IN TOULOUSE ON THE 15TH NOVEMBER 2007 AT 17:00 LOCAL TIME.

THE FOLLOWING IS THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS ACCORDING TO THE RECORDERS, WHICH HAS BEEN APPROVED FOR RELEASE BY THE FRENCH INVESTIGATION AUTHORITIES (BEA).

FOR ABOUT 3 MINUTES BEFORE THE END OF THE EVENT, ALL FOUR ENGINES EPR WAS BETWEEN 1.24 AND 1.26 WITH PARKING BRAKE ON AND WITHOUT GROUND CHOCKS.
THE ALTERNATE BRAKE PRESSURE WAS NORMAL. (WITH PARKING BRAKE ON, BRAKE PRESSURE IS SUPPLIED BY ALTERNATE).

13 SECONDS BEFORE THE IMPACT THE AIRCRAFT STARTED TO MOVE. WITHIN 1 OR 2 SECONDS THE CREW APPLIED BRAKE PEDAL INPUTS AND SELECTED PARKING BRAKE OFF. THESE ACTIONS LED THE NORMAL BRAKE PRESSURE TO INCREASE TO ITS NORMAL VALUE.

2 SECONDS PRIOR BEFORE THE IMPACT, ALL 4 ENGINE THRUST LEVERS WERE SELECTED TO IDLE.
THE AIRCRAFT IMPACTED THE CONTAINMENT WALL AT A GROUND SPEED OF 30 KTS.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY AIRCRAFT SYSTEM OR ENGINE MALFUNCTION.
AIRBUS REMINDS ALL OPERATORS TO STRICTLY ADHERE TO AMM PROCEDURES WHEN PERFORMING ENGINE GROUND RUNS
ENGINE GROUND RUNS AT HIGH POWER ARE NORMALLY CONDUCTED ON A SINGLE ENGINE WITH THE ENGINE IN THE SAME POSITION ON THE OPPOSITE WING OPERATED AT A LIMITED THRUST SETTING TO AVOID DAMAGE TO THE AIFRAME
WHEEL CHOCKS ARE TO BE INSTALLED THROUGHOUT THE TEST.
YANNICK MALINGE
VICE PRESIDENT FLIGHT SAFETY
AIRBUS
...sitting there, full thrust, low gross weight. then i notice the brakes can't hold it. and then it takes 11 seconds till someone cuts the power?

Interesting news FCS explorer.

is there any news where the a/c is today? still parked at the wall? Further to all previous msg's, I find it unreal to read, that noone pulls the plug when this a/c started to move, being empty and full thrust.:ugh:

I felt the same until I considered what Loose Rivets said in post #191.

It made me think about the A/C shudder of running all 4 engines at high power and .....if nobody was looking out a window (after all there is no scenery to look at).

30kts criminey!!

so where in hell did the story about falling over a pedastal come from that was posted earlier:confused:

AIRBUS REMINDS ALL OPERATORS TO STRICTLY ADHERE TO AMM PROCEDURES WHEN PERFORMING ENGINE GROUND RUNS. ENGINE GROUND RUNS AT HIGH POWER ARE NORMALLY CONDUCTED ON A SINGLE ENGINE WITH THE ENGINE IN THE SAME POSITION ON THE OPPOSITE WING OPERATED AT A LIMITED THRUST SETTING TO AVOID DAMAGE TO THE AIFRAME.

So what does the Manual actually say?

Ref shutting down engines with no access to the normal methods:
Not really appropiate in this situation and certainly not in the cited overrun, pax on board sceinario, but I read of a bush pilot in Canada or Alaska who shut down the runaway PT6 on his Twin Otter by shooting it to death!

FCS Explorer, Tediek,

just to be strict on terminology: high power is not "full thrust"! The AIT said between EPR 1.24 and 1.26.

If the Trent 500 is anything like the V2500, EPR 1.25 would still be somewhat below Max Climb thrust. So quite a bit, but still well below "full", if I take it to mean MCT. A340-600 drivers could shed light on this.

I don't know if "full thrust" is defined at all. Is it MCT? TOGA?


Bernd

Bernd,

you wrote it, I thought it. No problem will look after this. :=

Lack of Chox is the same as lack of Seat belts, they both need to be fitted before they are needed.
.
However worth remembering Chox come in different sizes, if large energy is involved, suggest big Chox used.
.
Also to note, during Engine runs, Chox should be a little distance from tyres, touching the tyres has caused many aircraft to move.
.
Good to hear all involved getting better.
.
I hope Airbus has a Learn Culture, not a Blame one.