Polar S - if you check the posts you may get some clues:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">To keep the heat of the other two lady pilots,who are good friends of ours, the Lady is no longer based in the Midlands </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">and Hoskins says. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> She will chop the power at 50' at vma+5kts on the F100 and THUMP it in. Say anything at choxs on and the waterworks flow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Any offers?

GlamGran, and MP too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .This whole thing must have been hellish for both of you. I am very sorry that anyone should be put thru' such a nasty situation.. .. .I love your profile - flying, drinking and shopping - what more could a body ask for? Sounds like my idea of heaven!

I think Justin's detective work points you to bmi!

Sorry for a stupid question - who flies the F100 in the UK?

PG ; There are two (at least that I know of) companies that flies the F100 in UK...both of them have blue as their main colorscheme (until recently that is..).. .. .MP - You know what makes me think about your tale? Today it was you. Who will it be tomorrow and will this ever become a trend or will it be an exception? I know that it is simply a fact of life (and human nature) that there will be always that "pain in the @*s" everywhere at any given time...99% are good people, 1% bad..but that 1% seems always more present and in your case was the ultimate "problem".. .. .Don't bother anymore..turn the page (easy for me to say you may think - but...). Is no good to keep revolving that sentiment, you will be the only one affected. Life is short and so enjoy it every moment - specially now that you have, even if unwanted, more time to you and your family. . .. .Sincerely. .. .AB. .. .PS ; "What goes around , comes around"

I hope you are.. .. .Phil

Maybe if more occurrences like this were made public, then something could be done about them...too public?...don't think so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

Just to put my two pennorth in.. .. .I've flown wwith Pete on the line several times and always learned something. the only time I've been in the sim was just after my command course and was required to stoke for an FO who had been off sick for six months and need refresher training plus LPC/OPC etc. Although I was not under test, the FO had obviously done a lot of reading before hand and everything went really well apart from one excercise. As soon as it was obviously going pear shaped, off came the motion and we stopped for a think, and then had another go. Everything I saw during those two days was geared towards the requirements of the student and was tailored to him as an individual rather than an exercise in ticking boxes. The whole affair was very professional and extrememly good fun as well. Again I learnt a lot.. .MP has a wealth of experience to pass on and a good manner in which to do it. However if you have failed failed to prepare adequately then (in the sim) he will let you continue until your shortcomings are obvious even to yourself. It then depends if you have the strength of character to learn from his guidance, or do you blame everyone else? Although I have never flown with the lady in question, words to the wise abound in the crewroom for when you do.. .Pete will be sorely missed, enjoy your new career.

At my airline we have a union and we also have a professional standards committee to check and to contain this sort of "runaway train" scenario.. .. .Before company management gets involved, our Professional Standards Committee, made up of rank and file elected crewmembers, gets first crack at resolving personality and flight standards issues.. .. .In this business there are no desperate situations, only desperate people.

Nubboy my sentiments exactly, I have flown and been trained by MP a number of times and always found him to be very fair, with a wealth of knowledge, who's whole approach was to make you a safer and better operator. I find it amazing that one persons extremely stupid and juvenile comments, aimed purely at getting her own back because of her own below standard performances can have had the effect which they did. Management should've been down on her like a ton bricks, but however let situation get so far out of hand it ruined a good man's(30+ yrs of service) working life. . .Stupid comments like the ones she made could so easily wreck not just a persons career but also thier marriage/relationship.. .. .All the best Pete enjoy retirement, you will be sorely missed!!!

Nubboy and Budvar,. .. .Many thanks for your kind comments. I miss the simulator training and the sessions in the bar afterwards.. .. .Keep in touch . .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Maximum Pete,. .. .I have no idea who you are, (though a shrewd idea as to which airline and where), but having read the thread, would like to add my thoughts...... .. .I am a professional pilot much as you are (or were). Your story (and I don't doubt it for a moment - it pales into insignificance compared with others I have heard) leaves me cold.. .. .My concern is with the state of our profession.. .. .Managers and regulators alike are responsible for driving our standards down, whether they are standards of qualification, training, technical knowledge, or conduct. It sounds as though your nemesis has lower standards than you, in many if not all of these respects.. .. .Might I take this opportunity to say, to fellow professionals who read this forum, that it is not too late to 'stop the rot' - yet. We must stand firm for what we believe in. Do you, Pete, imagine that your story could have unfolded in BA in the 60s? No, of course not. The 'lady' concerned would have been thrown out on her backside for having the temerity to accuse. I do not suggest that this would have been right either - the acceptable path lies between this and that which you have been forced to tread.. .. .We must, if we believe that we are professionals, stop putting up with this type of rubbish from our 'managers'. I cannot stress the point strongly enough.. .. .If we do not do this, we can expect the present changes to our lives - more work, less pay, fewer and lower standards, more interference, and a down-skilling of our profession - to continue.. .. .I am lucky enough to be an able communicator, and take the opportunity to communicate in all sorts of forums, as and when I can. I often find this difficult, as it can grind against the 'corporate philosophy' which my position dictates I must support. I have met with some success of late. However, I often feel mine is a lone voice.. .. .You fell on your sword, Pete, and I hope you don't let this episode cloud your reminiscences. Enjoy your retirement. You have earned it.. .. .Colleagues, stand with me.. .. .Stop the rot.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 09:06: Message edited by: NorthernSky ]</small>

NorthernSky,. .. .I think you hit the nail on the head!. .. .There is a saying which I think is relevant in and out of aviation:. .. ."A good manager anticipates". .. .Not much else I can say really. .. .VERY Happily Retired MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Maximum Pete's moral courage in posting his experience on PPRUNE is commendable. I thoroughly agree with Northern Sky; the management rot has got to stop.. .. .In my time in the industry I worked for several airlines and ended up with a very jaundiced view of pilot management. A rare few (the really really bright ones) were outstanding and bless their souls. The majority were just protecting their own positions and you had to wonder how they came by the post. It seemed to me that they invariably came up via the training route having rubbed shoulders with other managers. Now, pilots are managers in their own right BUT line management is an altogether different role and you will suceed if you are naturally talanted OR properly trained.. .. .I had some thoroughly unpleasant (although seemingly diplomatic) encounters with Fleet Pilots. They wanted punctuality and I wanted defects rectified before take off. I recall asking for clarification in writing in one case (BALPA screened the letter first) and that got them off my back, However, a few months later I had a really odd SIM Check (which I passed) and it was clear to me that they were not going to let matters pass. I left on my own terms for pastures new and never looked back.. .. .How do we raise the standard of pilot management?. .The only way forward that I can see is proper training for the job which, as yet does not exist.. .. .I wonder if Cranfield could be persuaded to run short courses for pilot managers. say two months covering the basic stuff like employment law, safety, aviation medicine and some finance.. .. .What are your thoughts gentleman?

Wig Wag.. .. .There are some excellent courses in and outside the aviation industry. . .. .Unfortunately there is always one stumbling block: MONEY. .. .In the ideal world all pilots would attend a full-blown management course as part of their induction training when they join an airline. Perhaps someone with a service background can confirm that officers/pilots are trained in management skills very early on in their careers? This does not appear, at least from my own personal experiences, to happen in the civilian aviation world.. .. .I think we are getting there at the Grass-Root level with the CRM training at the initial training stage when joining the airline and more importantly during recuurrency training when we are getting a "feel" for the job. However very little appears to be done to have a formal selection procedure for managers. Maybe a weekend of Chay Blythe or something similar could be on the cards. Walking on red hot coals could be made part of the curriculum, only joking!. .. .All the best everyone. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

&gt;&gt;there is always one stumbling block: MONEY&lt;&lt;. .. .I know!. .. .Pilots would like their management to facilitate them in operational matters and careers and the airlines want managers to control cost. Hence 'soft' middle management who invariably handle staff badly. This only becomes a cost issue when there is an appreciable pilot turnover.. .Managers get replaced by more of the same. There are always more gullible types waiting in the wings!. .. .Its a real headache for line pilots. I don't know what to suggest further.

In most areas, there are minimum standards of training laid down by the regulator, this is certainly true for pilots, trainers, examiners, etc, who all have a part to play in the day-to-day operation of the aircraft.. .. .Those with strategic responsibilty for the airline's operations and standards are not required to undergo any formal training or checking, and need no particular qualifications.. .. .Some airlines do devote time and money to trainig their management. This may do little more than to put them at a commercial disadvantage.. .. .I would propose a requirement for the licensing of airline management staff, with post-holders required to have passed an approved course in airline management, the syllabus to include the regulatory requirement, a seemless knowledge of JAR, state-specific matters such as FTLs, and so on, plus a course of study of hu8man factors issues such as dealing with disciplinary and grievance procedures.. .. .There would need to be a 'buddy' system of career development, with a possible candidate shadowing a qualified post-holder during their study and qualification, the process being overseen by 'Airline Management Inspectors' - similar to FOIs, and with a responsibilty for seeing that the training was undertaken properly and the candidate's progress was satisfactory.. .. .The final step, before a candidate was allowed to hold a post, would be a board interview with similar aims to the 'witnessing' requirement in training.. .. .This, of course, is rather more 'blue sky' than NorthernSky'. Anyone agree with it, or have better or other ideas? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

With reference to the pilot with the scantily clad men on her clipboard and the circuit breakers too sensitive to wear a shoulder harness -- she certainly isn't a 'lady' pilot.. .. .I'm so sorry you went through this experience. I have been flying now for 18 years, more on than off, and started at a time when there were hardly any lady pilots;I have the honour to have been the first one in the U.A.E.,for instance. Now I'm in Botswana, due to move to contract work soon.. .. .Honestly and truly, in ALL that time, I have not had one experience where I have felt prejudiced against or harrased in any way -- quite the contrary, and the feeling of camaraderie is the most precious part of my career. All this is a bit soppy I suppose but I want you to know that people like me are grateful to alot of 'old school' guys who let us in with a smile.. .. .What did they used to call it before it was the 'box office' ? !

NorthernSky,. .. .I entirely agree with your suggestions. . .. .If there had been a manager in place who could actually manage this sorry state affairs could have been sorted out in about an hour, if that.. .. .Unfortunately the "luddite" mentality persists in certain quarters and this could happen again within my ex-airline.. .. .I'm not knocking managers. There is one very able competent pilot manager, whose name I cannot mention, but he is denied the time and the tools to carry out the job to his satisfaction.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Budvar asked why management allowed this to develop. A cynical answer would be cost. If the female pilot is anything like the description then she would be hitting them with a sex discrimination writ if they had the balls to stand up to her. This of course could lead to unlimited damages.. .. .Add this to the pathetic standard of people management in all areas of industry and you can begin to see why a good guy such as MP was an easier target that the female pilot.. .. .The message from this is that whilst most female pilots are perfectly able to work with male colleagues you will always have the one who can suddenly bring you face to face with the scenario faced by MP. It is a doomsday scenario that can happen to any of you, at any time.. .. .MP has shown morale courage to bring this shaby, disgraceful and incompetently handled incident to general attention.

This thread emphasises the fact that if you happen to be male, your chances of getting a fair hearing in any sexual harassent case are slim. There are cabin crew who have openly bragged that they would like to "earn" a couple of grand in damages if they got the chance. Even if little or no evidence is presented you are still in trouble. Sadly, the only answer seems to be to get your lawyers in early if you are ever in this unfortunate position.

Could we have a comment on Contacted,,,,,,'s assertion that this is distasteful for exposure in a public forum. Surely openness and transparency should be applauded !. .. .Or is this symptomatic of New Labour's approach to the public airing of sleaze; it's fine if it pertains to your opponents but if it relates to the party ?????????????????????????????. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 17:26: Message edited by: Justin Cyder-Belvoir ]</small>

I see from Contact's profile that he flies the 777 and is based in the UK. No doubt his managers are properly trained.. .. .It would therefore be a safe to assume that his employers would not place him in the unenviable position that I found myself. . .. .Thank goodness for early retirement!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

MP,. .. .Firstly, my deepest sympathy to you and your family.. .. .Sadly, this sort of occurrence is becoming all too common. I agree with the majority here though, name the b******s. I myself have been a victim of an in justice in the past, and my family suffered too, so I certainly understand how you feel.. .. .MP just remember, every dog has his day !. .. .Enjoy your well earned retirement.

Have only ppruned for about 3 months,and this is my first posting;. .I can only echo the comments made by those who have flown/sim'med with pete:-Best of luck in your retirement.. .Judging by the "qualities" exhibited by this f/o,it makes me concerned for the standard of future recruitment.I'm hoping that this one was an isolated case that slipped through the net.sounds like the typical arrogant type that starts along a career path thinking they have nothing to learn,while turning their nose up at comments/suggestions made by those that REALLY have the experience.(I'm not a trainer,by the way-I just remember being in that position quite a few years ago,and feel that I have benefitted immensely from such training). .. .As for management quality;-. . . .For SOME depts.-see above para!. .Anyway,with all the fleet changes afoot I guess I could find myself sitting next to her-not a nice thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Best wishes,Pete. . -from where the M1 only goes north

To MP and Mrs Pete. .. .A truly dreadful situation and like everyone else here I wish you every success in your retirement. You have clearly generated great respect from many of your colleagues, and I would be honoured if when I retire people felt the same about me.. .. .There is a saying that 'what goes around comes around' and I think there is an element of truth in it. Time will tell in this case. . .. .One of the difficulties of this situation is that some really good women pilots can be tarred with the same brush as the lady you have described. We have some great ones in our company who are highly respected by managers and peers alike. . .. .When I was in the RAF some years ago there was a great desire to get the first women selected for aircrew training through to the front line at any cost. Consequently, some very poor specimens got through training who, if they had been male, would never have made it in a million years. The view then prevailed for some time that all women in aviation were a joke. Eventually some degree of sanity prevailed and proper equality was applied. As the training system started to pass and fail women on demonstrated ability just like their male counterparts, the attitude to the women who got through changed significantly. Everyone recognised that they were there on ability and nothing else. There are lessons from that painful period of RAF history for everyone in aviation. It is simply counterproductive to artificially enhance the prospects of minorities (women, blacks, whoever) in top jobs when their abilities clearly do not justify their employment. Everyone can see through it, and they all end up despising the complete lack of integrity associated with such practices, however well intended. The genuine desire to bring equality ends up producing the very resentment the powers-at-be were trying to eradicate. Like I said at the beginning, there are so many fantastic women pilots about, and any manager who hangs onto a duff one because of their sex is actually doing untold damage to the cause of equality.

Pete:. .. .It is obvious from all the responses that you have gained something money can never buy, the support and respect of your colleauges and your wife.. .. .Now in my opinion for the good of all our female colleauges who are unfairly tarred by this one person I would suggest that there are many out there who can name her, I think that would be the proper thing to do.. .. ................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Pete - Does your ex company have any Lady trainers? One way to avoid a discrimination case.. .. .Best of luck in your retirement.

MP,. .. .Don't know you and your original post immediatly prompted an "uh oh, two sides to this one". Obviously not the case, to judge from the postings of those acquainted with you. . .. .And, again judging from those same postings, you've still got plenty of mileage left in you plus experience and that enviable skill in imparting that experience to others. "Retirement" sounds a bit premature!

Dirty Harry, I am sorry, but I couldn't resist this, but when you said every dog has his day, did you not mean something else?. .. .Just a thought.. .. .MP, I take my hat off to you, and it can plainly be seen you are a man of integrity, and it shows with the amount of support you have recieved.. .I have also meet with this type and thank God, in my case her (in)sanity prevailed and she left the company. My experience with management was similiar, luke warm to say the the least.. .. .I feel more for those that follow you, and will have to go through the same experience no doubt, but with more disasterious consequences. I hope you have given enough people the "heads up" for this not to eventuate.. .. .As for the woman concerned, I sincerely hope she reads and knows of this thread and takes kind councel from it, and applies the lesson that she needs to learn. We are all the same professionally and by resorting to gender bias is totally dispicable.

Well said.. . . . <small>[ 11 March 2002, 03:05: Message edited by: Iso ]</small>

G.Khan,. .. .We had three lady pilots on the fleet. Two are very good friends of mine and I have the highest regard for their abilities and the manner in which they conduct themselves. One is changing ing fleets as I write and unfortunately the second is still under threat of redundancy. . .. .Yes, there is a lady trainer on another fleet. I have flown with her when she was cabin crew and again when she was first officer. Again I have the highest regard for her. She changed fleets when she was promoted to captain and then a training captain.I hear from both the training department and from the pilots who have been fortunate enough to be trained by her that she is of the highest calibre.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Well, as most others have had their say on this one then I'll add my bit: I don'tknow Maximum Pete myself, which type of A/C he trains on or which airline he worked for. However it is totally obvious from what many others have said he is the sort of total professional who has probably forgotten more about flying than I have ever learned. I have met several such in my career and to draw knowledge, experience and wisdom from them is a privelege. But what of the young lady? Well, in view of the ineptness of the management who let this situation arise in the first place, I have no doubt that they will be fooled by her techniques into letting her have her command in due course. I just hope that I am not a passenger on the aircraft she commands in the short time she is allowed to command it. Or will all the other F/O's, trained by M.P. to the highest standards, haul her out of trouble time and time again? If this happens, she may eventually be able to claim several hundred hours IN COMMAND of a fast passenger jet. Ouch.. .. .Enjoy your retirement M.P.

Mrs P,. .. .Make the best use of him around the house while you can... You can't keep a good man down!

Mr and Mrs Pete,. .The only thing worse than discrimination is positive discrimination!. .Best wishes for your retirement and remember the big wheel turns, she'll get her's!. .Regards Rodders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Hi, Pete.. .. .As another of your trainees, I'd like to add my best wishes for your retirement. Is it true that only one manager managed to phone to say goodbye? And that that was only to ensure you returned all kit?. .. .I haven't flown with this female , but so many horror stories mean that some must be true. If ever a job should be won by ability, ours is it. Positive discrimination in any form is a creeping cancer of the PC age, and must be stopped.

Is the "lady" going to come out of the closet and post a reply?. .. .WE know who you are "Darling"!!!

Ark,. .. .I had a half hour interview with my Chief Pilot as part of the termination procedure. I think that's what they call it.. .. .I did have a letter from LL but nothing from anyone else and don't expect to after this little lot.. .. .It will be "head in the sand" time again!. .. .By the way I still owe you a beer.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

MP,. .. .Judging by the huge number of unsolicited recommentations you have received, you are either a hugely respected individual deserving of immense status within our industry or a mate of The Guvnor, inventing alternative usernames in support of your own arguments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> I am convinced of the former as you have managed to keep your comments adult and dignified throughout this entire thread.. .. .My sympathies go to you and your family, It frequently worries me that a similar occasion could occur in my own career. I just cling to the old adage that "What Goes Around, Comes Around". Such Karma is rarely instant (despite what John Lennon wrote) but those who profit from misdeeds usually suffer a similar fate themselves... Eventually.. .. .Best of luck in your retirement and give yourself a pat on the back for being the kind of trainer who has bestowed upon our industry a legacy of many satisfied customers. No-one can take that away!

Could not airline pilots rightly be entitled to some form of ombudsman to assist in cases like this?. .. .This sort of ghastly nightmare probably happens an awful lot more than we ever hear of. If a situation becomes unresolved just where do pilots turn to for help? . .. .The CAA can suspend/revoke a licence in extremis. They can also suspend you on medical grounds for stress. But what happens when the airline is CAUSING that stress through bad working practices? How do you prove that?. .. .A pilot could blow the whole story to the press and blow his/her career with it. BALPA do some very good work behind the scenes; there is always the option applying legal pressure to a situation.. .. .If an external arbitrator could come into play it might just force airlines to THINK before they treat a LICENCED professional badly.. .. .At any rate, in an increasingly cost conscious industry, there is going to be a lot more of this sort of of malpractice.. .. .Post accident the fare paying public would be aghast to learn that the crew had been at such odds with each other. Imagine the wording of the subsequent AAIB report if they learnt that the airline had applied such pressure for them to fly together . . .