Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Fair point gentlemen. I shall refrain from commenting on this incident in question. Perhaps though some of you should not be pointing fingers at the cabin crew until we do indeed know the full facts.

Magplug, didn't mean to offend - although I stand by what I wrote RE: your (and it would seem allot of other's) point - waiting for the fire warning light to go out; - I would still have to disagree.

Climb normal, it's interesting you mention the 737 incident 20 years ago, I remember that one also. There where a number of factors which caused the many deaths regarding that incident, one of the main ones was "time" , the time it took the crew to realise the severity of the incident and initiate the evacuation.

How do you know for sure if it's a contained fire. How do you know that just because the fire warning has gone out that there is no further damage to the engine/wing etc. The pilots of the Manch. 737 incident would have acted very differently if they were able to see the engine/wing in question but the point is you can't.

The overriding point here is that you have 2 choices if you see a cockpit fire warning -

a) Carry out the emergency procedures and wait in hope that it has done it's job and that when the fire light goes out the fire is really out.

or

b) Carry out the emergency procedures and order an evacuation.

I know which one I'd chose.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

APU u/s. #4 started on stand. #1 started during push back.

I’ve carried out engine runs on the RJ myself and forgotten to increase engine power on the running engine, resulting in a wind down of the good engine and it stalling/surging. I escaped with a cough of flames and brown underwear, fortunately only me onboard so no witnesses! I also had the luxury of only being concerned about one person and could pause to decide what to do. I didn’t have to worry about any possibility of the PA not working when the aircraft died down to battery power, or try to communicate through a locked flight deck door with cabin crew and eighty-odd punters.

A surge or jet pipe fire will not give a fire warning. Pulling the fire handle on your only source of AC power will disable a lot of a/c systems, including main lights. If you’re told you have an engine fire what else would you do?!

The cabin crew got everyone off safely from what they believed was an aircraft on fire.

The flight deck acted the best they could with the information they had at hand.

It’s taken you about 15 seconds to read this post. Probably about 15 times longer than the decision time the crew of G-CFAE had.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Completely unrelated to this incident, but Jet2 had an emergency landing too on the 11th Jan into LBA with a suspected engine fire, one engine shut down just after take off (B737), returned and landed safely.

Seems that one didn't even make the news and it actually got off the ground.

Amazing what makes a good read and what doesn't.

:)

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Puddle-Jumper 2

You have a right to your opinion, but your recommendations on how you would handle the situation has little to no credibility.

We're not talking about flames impinging on a fuselage where there is only a small finite time before it is breached similar to Manchester.

The great majority of external (from the fuselage) fires are well mitigated from threatening the aircraft occupants as well as other critical systems (fuel tanks etc.) by shielding or fire barriers in the design of the aircraft. More specifically the engines are shielded from the pylon critical structure and fuel for a period of time well within the crews ability to assess the situation via instrumentation as well as visual cues (from cabin crew, rampworkers, tower etc.)and to take appropriate and advised action. Such action includes assessing whether its a contained engine tailpipe fire or a nacelle fire.

I am not happy to be put out a door onto a slide in front of running engines just because Gus passenger thinks its a good idea.. I have experience with passengers screaming fire and causing undo panic including leaping out of moving aircraft because they felt it was the right thing to do. Unfortunately they greatly exacerbated the situation by forcing the pilots hand when the correct action was simply to turn off the fuel to the engine and motor the engine so as to blow the temporary flame out the tailpipe and clear of the engine and aircraft wings.

I am happy to say that I shall not follow your unwise assessments and recommendations and will continue to support the longstanding recommendations developed by the professionals.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

"You have a right to your opinion, but your recommendations on how you would handle the situation has little to no credibility."

Perhaps you should reserve your learned judgement until the AAIB has released its findings. You may find the cabin crew were unable to communicate with the flight deck. Lots of punters + Fire + No comms = Run away!

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm...name_page.html

-- slightly over-dramaticized?

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Lamapaseo,

I am not referring to this particular situation - but I am interested in the earlier comments RE; different opinions on how to handle a fire warning on ground.

Like me your entitled to your opinion - and if you think my opinion on how to handle a fire warning on the ground is unwise, then it's your choice.

I have found some extracts from our operating manual 'abnormal procedures' for you and others to read. -----


"It is company procedure to order an evacuation if a fire warning occurs on the ground. A rejected take-off from 60 knots or less may be ignored from the point of view of brake and tyre waiting periods unless taxiing distances are very long. After a rejected take-off from between 60 and 100 knots, ETC ETC"


An evacuation must be performed without delay if remaining on board would put the passengers’ health or life in danger.
A spurious fire warning is a rare event in the 146. So an evacuation is ALWAYS ordered in the event of a fire warning occurring on the ground; evacuation is ordered even if the caption subsequently extinguishes; this covers the case of the fire re-igniting. If a fire is successfully extinguished in the air, there is no need for an automatic evacuation after landing.

This is the opinion of our Chief Training Capt.- and as you know by now I happen to agree with it.


Itsresidualmate - spot on

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

There was no "Fire warning" on the MWS, it was not a fire, it was a duff start. Any larger aircraft/engine and the slides and passengers whould have been minced.

As for your chief pilots view about not getting false fire warnings on the 146, we had several in the 3 years i flew it.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Hotel mode,

You must have been very unlucky.

I've been on the 146 for 16 years - and have never had a false one.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Well that's specifically at odds to the BA manuals Puddle, old boy...

My emergency brief states that in the event of an emergency during take off, having brought the a/c to a halt and set the parking brake (after turning appropriately for any wind), we first discuss the reason for the stop. Personally, I might even take a deep breath and put the dome light on too. Then I call for any appropriate checklist (always the Engine fire c/l even if after simple flame-out or run down) which the F/O carries out unmonitored whilst I assess the situation by contacting CC, Twr or by looking out of the window. There's still probably useful information coming from the cockpit indications of course.

The SCCM will pick up the interphone and be waiting for me to talk to them but will not interrupt me until I initiate the conversation. F/O, as part of the recall items, only fires a fire bottle if the red light is on, then starts the stopwatch with a view to firing the other one if the light has not gone out within 30 seconds. The 30 seconds goes very quickly whilst you are gathering information from other sources, and on the 737 (and RJ) you can always open the DV windows and lean out to see what is happening behind. Only then, would you normally initiate an evacuation if the fire warning had not gone out after putting the second bottle in. It is generally considered more dangerous to evacuate unnecessarily it the fire has gone out and a more orderly disembarkation would do nicely. BA invest lots of time and money assessing this kind of stuff amongst 'core' safety managers and their policy is based on a considered evaluation of the risk assessment.

I say normally above, because there could always be a situation where the information you have learned before firing the second bottle makes it so obvious that an evacuation is necessary, that you would not wait. I feel this would be rare, but cannot be discounted. One thing pilots have to be is flexible. There is a lot going on in a short time... What is very important is to do things in the right order without rushing too much. Shutting down any engines still running is quite important before ordering the evacuation if you don't want to cook/mince those who think they are evacuating to safety. Panicking in headless chicken mode is not recommended.

PS. Hotel Mode is right about there having been spurious fire warnings on the ex CFE RJs. How goes it on the Jumbo, me old mucker?

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Finally, the sort of reply I was looking for. Thanks.

It's interesting to note the differences in our emergency SOP's.

Yes, I too also take a deep breath before asking for any emergency checklist and I am not advocating 'panicking in headless chicken mode.'

I seem to remember that some of the cabin crew on the Manch. 737 incident were still found strapped to their crew seat. My guess is that if they could comment on this they would argue that 30 seconds is a very long time - a life times worth in fact.

Lets hope we never have to put these theories to the test.

Your right when you say that we have to be flexible, thinking outside the box sometimes is part of the job.

Personally though I'd rather be sitting on the tarmac wondering whether or not it was the right decision to evacuate than sitting in the cockpit wishing I had .

PJ

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

At the subsequent board of enquiry, you need to have a jolly good reason for deviating from your company SOP.

BA obviously decide that the chances of another fire as serious and fast acting as the one in MAN are very small so have written their SOPs accordingly. Your company clearly takes a different view.

If I ordered an evacuation before firing the second bottle, the fire then went out straight away and someone subsequently (and very unluckily) died of a concussion received whilst going down the slide, I don't think it would look all that good for me.

Conversely, If you didn't order an evacuation straight away and the worst were to happen you'd be in a similar amount of hot water.

WRT this incident, BA have been quoted as saying that the crew had no cockpit fire indications and we do not know yet who actually initiated the evacuation.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

An engine fire on the runway at high power is a whole different ball game to a tailpipe fire on push too.

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Rightly or wrongly a decision was made and a decision acted upon what would have been far worse would have been indecision now everybody can write here about what they would have done but given the same set of circumstances nobody knows how they would have handled it, sure you can quote SOPs until you are blue in the face , as some people have but until you are in the same situation and have seconds to act then you do not know how you are going to handle it I am sure there are many flight deck out there who have made decisions only to reflect on them later and with the benefit of hindsight and a large G&T thought given my time again i would have done it differently ,so at the end of the day 86 pax evacuated no injuries jobs a good un!!!!

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Any chance of using a full stop in future posts?

Re: Engine fire, EDI
 

Full stop key bust!!!!!!

OK.... After all the debate, has it been determined:......

a) Who hit the evac alarm, the Capt or the CC or,
b) Did the punters just start jumping out ???

beaver eager,
some good points. The question is - which is the hottest water ?

a) Someone dies from the evac. It goes to court where the FDR and CVR are examined and they see evidence of the fire warning - just luke warm I'd say !
or
b) You wait the 30 sec. and the fire continues - it goes to court and they conclude that many lives could have been saved by acting quicker - boiling I'd say !
Your comment RE: sticking to SOP's is a very valid one though - particularly if you do indeed end up in court afterwards.:uhoh:
I appreciate that there may have not been a fire warning with this particular incident which is why I'm staying off that topic - I've already made an ar** of myself on that one.:}

Hotel Mode,
An engine fire/warning can happen anywhere and it's sod's law it will happen when you least expect it.- i.e.: not the just before V1 as it tends to be in the Sim.:{ The question is - how to deal with it ?

Morlowe,
I'm with you all the way. It's all too easy to 'armchair' an incident after the event and point fingers accordingly - and there's more than enough of that going at the beginning of this thread thank you.

Incidentally- I've been discussing this incident during my pre-flight briefs with the cabin crew. It's good to learn something from these sort of things - regardless of how the actual event was handled.:cool:

The Punters have a Different Perspective
 

J.Blow with wife and kids on seeing a humongous flame coming out back of an engine:

1. counts 8 rows = 48 other punters of varying degrees of sobriety / capability / hustle / baggage between his family and nearest exit
2. knows nothing about tailpipe fires
3. hears nothing from the cockpit -- yes, we here know they're busy up to their eyeballs carrying out the drills, but not J. Blow
4. may have faint memory of Manchester
5. has no knowledge to differentiate start problem from imminent catastrophe
6. hits the panic button.

You blame him?

That's one very good reason for tail-mounted engines, out of sight of SLF. :rolleyes: