So how do you know they are pilots?
Could be ANSP

I wil report this post to a moderator who will hopefully remove it
 

Nice try David

Or how about lets sell loads of newspaper copy, frighten the general public unecessarily and perhaps put a few extra people on the dole queue while we are about it.

I've had personal experience of the press and such experience leaves me to believe that you should never voluntarily go near any of them with a barge pole.


Regards
Exeng

pilots under pressure to take risks
 

ETOPS

quote:


-------------------------
Just count the number of movements per year operated by UK Airlines and divide by the number of fatal accidents............Oh, looks like we "stack up" pretty well.”
------------------------------------

ETOPS, are all deaths and injuries to pilots publicly recorded? I know that they are not. Does the bullying of pilots and the misery to families get recorded? Number crunching and stats don’t tell the real cost.


AND

RUBIK 101

quote:
-------------------------

“The thread has been written as if this was an everyday occurence. If that is the case, then I too would be concerned.”
-------------------------------------

You have written as if you know how often these occurrences were ignored. Are all deaths and injuries to pilots publicly recorded? I know that they are not.

You feel (for feeling is different from thinking) that “if all these phantom managers toed the critical safety line then accidents would stop happening.”

The ICAO training is that if managers understood safety systems and their role in it accidents would be reduced. Be concerned! Be very concerned:suspect:

...and what\'s more, have you seen the Private Eye article, \'Airline sacked poisoned pilot\' (No.1140 2-15 September 2005) This article is nearly spot on!

They poisoned him then sacked him! Is this in keeping with the human factors so necessary for flight safety? (as taught by ICAO) What is HSE/CAA doing to rectify the systems aspect of this behaviour?

Let\'s face it, the problem is political. Our Government signs up to ICAO rules and then igore them.

If management toed the critical safety line line then without doubt some of these accidents could have been prevented.

Name and shame? How do you think these people manage to cut corners? .....Fear, very simple.

Naming an shaming is not an option, look at A Sayers post to see what happens whistleblowers.

Rubik, if you knew what really goes on you would change your tune.

As for the media. Investigative hacking needs a bit more thought than a post on Pprune. Try contacting handling agents at some more remote outposts, particularly those with unusual weather etc. Those people don't work for the airlines and will have stories on the main offenders.

THIS THREAD - Pilots ''under pressure to take risks"

Pilots being put "Under Pressure" doesn't have to be so obvious and visible.

A simple roster of 6 on 2 off which runs continuously for 2 month puts a pilot under pressure. Slowly eroding his alertness, his will to perform, his interest in dealing with important details!

This pressure is LEGAL. The airlines roster it, the CAA approves it! So this in itself is pressure, as a pilot can not argue about his rostered hours or the number of taxi journeys, or the number of earlies to lates conversions!

Pilots are under pressure as we're all overworked to the hilt, to the degree that they have to take us off the flying program periodically as we reach our limits faster than predicted.

I am under pressure. I have a family, a house, car etc... I feel less and less valued by my employer. I feel being used more than ever. I am under pressure because I have to also sit in the right hand seat, having had command for 10 years. Having to fly with other captains puts me under pressure.

I feel under pressure, as I am 9 years from the end, but there is no factoring/allowance for age -vs- performance. I am expected to be as alert as a 25 year old! On a 6 day week it's not easy.

I feel pressured because I can be working for 6 days and each of these days I could have weather, slot, operational etc problems.
There's no factoring for our hours regarding the conditions we are operating in!
On a sunny, nice day - day 6 can be easier than day 6 on a murky, foggy week, or a 40kts crosswind week!!! No factoring/allowance for this.

Think about it.

Add a few technical problems to the concoction above and suddenly we could all be:

ACCIDENT PRAWN!

Daily Telegraph sleuth
 

.


I can understand the trepidation one might feel about speaking with a newspaper, but what are the alternatives? If there is a problem with low cost aviation, and if the authorities and unions will not deal with the situation, what alternatives do you have? Carry on moaning to each other until a series of accidents occur?

Investigative reporting has, on many occasions, sorted out management pressures and problems that the authorities have turned a blind eye to. Authorities are always reluctant to curb management pressures, as this gives the authority extra work and pressure - so the tendency is always to maintain the status quo until pressured into taking action. But who will pressure the authorities, if not the media? Remember, the media have also solved a number of management issues retrospectively, but this is hardly the optimum resolution to a problem.

As far as the investigative side is concerned, reporting rumours from outstations is simply not possible; it is both irresponsible and the lawyers would never allow this to be printed. Only information direct from those involved is acceptable, and that means pilots, engineers and perhaps any disgruntled management.

Topics of interest are excessive rosters, fatigue, management pressure and engineering defects. Your industry lies in your hands,

[email protected]

Anonymity assured.


.

Accident Prawn,

I have no idea who you work for or what each of your 6 days on include, but I assume the hours you fly in the 6 days fall within the required limitation and your duty time within each day complies with flight and duty limits. Also since we appear to be talking airlines I assume you are a 2 crew operation.

Assuming the above are accurate, I have to say that a 6 and 2 rotation does not sound that heavy to me......most of the legs will be shared and most of the actual flying usually done by the AP.

But as you correctly state it depends on what is involved with the 6 on.

BALMY

I work for a famous LOCO in the UK.

If you say: "6 and 2 rotation does not sound that heavy to me" then you have either not done it yourself, or you may be management, or you're not a pilot???

I see you're from South Africa. I have not an ounce of an idea what aviation is like there, but what it's like here is quite obvious from my posting.

The picture I painted is genuine and I am sure there are many people in the UK feeling very similar.

This situation is slowly worsening and you could consider it as a major part of the Swiss Cheese that preceeds an ACCIDENT.

Daily Telegraph & Investigative reporting
 

I cannot believe somebody can say this, unless Balmy is a LoCo manager then it would make a lot of sense, what he said does not really help us here. It goes entirely against safety.

Balmy said:
"Accident Prawn,

I have no idea who you work for or what each of your 6 days on include, but I assume the hours you fly in the 6 days fall within the required limitation and your duty time within each day complies with flight and duty limits. Also since we appear to be talking airlines I assume you are a 2 crew operation.

Assuming the above are accurate, I have to say that a 6 and 2 rotation does not sound that heavy to me......most of the legs will be shared and most of the actual flying usually done by the A"

The required limitation is a "legalised" pressure as said, this does not mean it is acceptable or safe.
Organisations can make mistakes and politicians too. Often do.

This is why a healthy and honest investigative reporting would be the only solution. A good journalist could do this well.
I do not know which carrier is having the worst rosters at the moment, but I think this might help you:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ryanair+roster

Dear journalist, did you know this, from the above thread :

"The culture of getting pilots to pay for their own sims and conversion courses etc etc has led to a cost advantage for them that no carrier who does not do this can beat" (Ryanair).
I think this is the only carrier following this practice.

They also say:

"The recurrent theme is one of systematic abuse and exploitation of employees, including bullying and intimidation. The airline conducts itself in a "robust" manner at all times and has even used its legal advisors to demand removal of a threat from PPRuNe - apparently because of the repeated assertions that a "fear culture" does indeed exist". (Ryanair)

"But the claims are insistent, repeated across all levels of the organisation and give rise to concern at all levels except, apparently, where it counts in terms of having it investigated and sorted out one and for all" (Ryanair)

Or:

"Avoiding some of the pitfalls created by earlier contributors can I just go back to the beginning and tell you why Ryanair do concern me. My background (45 years) is entirely aviation, military and commercial from ground servicing to flight engineering and airline management of training. Now I look at other airlines operations purely from a passenger point of view - and it is that which concerns me. An earlier correspondent mentioned the lack of de-icing and walk round checks during a QTR. Yes - this happens and is an inevitable consequence of commercial pressures. The Captain makes the decision and that is it. But it is the cabin crew that mostly concern me". (Ryanair)

And:

"As a frequent flyer I choose not to fly Ryanair. This is not because I doubt the pilots ability in any way but because of my concerns over the attitude of the CEO"


Dear investigative journalists,
there is a lot of info on this forum, just do a search on Ryanair as an example and the material is all there. I just hope pilots, cabin crew and engineers working for them will contact you soon anonymously. Many of them are really fed up.

I do not work for Ryanair but the attitude of the CEO is more than sufficient for a final opinion on the carrier operations I am afraid: I saw him once on TV for an interview and I was shocked by his attitude.
And believe me, a CEO can put a lot of pressure on his Managers and then, consequently, on his front line and operational staff at all levels, including PILOTS, cabin crew and engineers with dangerous consequences.

Scary.







:mad: :ok:

Accident Prawn,

I am both management and pilot and I have a very deep regard for safety, but I do think that the whole Flight and Duty issue is seriously bent out of shape.

If you read my earlier post it was qualified with the note that it all depends on what is included in the 6 days on, and that of course only you can judge. The point being, I think, that just a 6 and 2 is not a problem on its own....there are many operations where 6 and 2 would be reasonably light.....it all depends on what’s included in the 6.

Most F & D limitations are highly theoretical because they do not even begin to take into account a number of the real issues that are involved.

As a general comment to all......I would think very very very carefully before submitting any of this to a journalist.....please remember the kind of garbage you read in most newspapers, or view on the news, when it comes to anything related to aviation. They really don’t have a clue what it is all about.....even their so called "Aviation Experts" have a way of sprouting nonsense with monotonous regularity.

Your company must have a flight safety officer or similar position and he should be open to being approached.....but I would make sure I was not a lone voice on the subject before the approach.....it would not go down well if you were shouting about it while the majority was saying "no problem".

If he (sorry or she) is not open to being approached on a subject like this then you (and he) really do have a problem.

Daily Telegraph info
 

>>I have no idea who you work for or what each of your 6 days on include, but I assume the hours
>>you fly in the 6 days fall within the required limitation and your duty time within each day complies with flight and duty limits.
>>Assuming the above are accurate, I have to say that a 6 and 2 rotation does not sound that heavy to me....


One presumes this is a management comment, as it appears to be rather complacent.
It has been said that within these 6 days, a loophole in the system allows for up to 72 hours work.
Further information on this would be appreciated.

[email protected]

.


Another point that has arisen, is insufficient time given for pre-flight planning. Any info out there?


[email protected]

.

And you Mr. Sleuth are NOT just looking for a story........you really really do have the interests of the pilots and aviation safety at heart........and you really really are an expert on aviation and qualified to report on this.......really really......and you know what.....I saw the tooth fairy last night........NO........really really....


As Accident Prawn correctly noted I am from South Africa and have nothing whatsoever to do with the said LoCo operator/s.....but here is what I do know....... the press do not have our interests at heart........just their own.....and anything that sounds like scary to the public is good copy......and sniffs of issues in aviation that relate to safety etc is the pot at the end of the rainbow. Just look at the tone and quality (specifically the lack thereof) of ALL reports in the press (any form thereof) related to aviation if you doubt what I am saying

There are other much better ways to resolve these problems....

Anything you say can and will be used against you.......and your industry

Attn David...
 

Hi David (Daily Telegraph):

just be carefull with the emails you receive, most of the posts here which are against any existance of "pressure" within the LoCo operations probably come from Managers or Pilots (in managerial positions) and obviously they get highly paid to make sure that it is all under control and nobody breaks the silence.
We do not know if they are real engineers or pilots as they sometimes state.

This "safety-pressure" issue is also cleverly organised in such a way that the direct pressure is nearly absent, most of the time is a subtle elusive indirect pressure, which is the most dangerous!

Let's hope we can make these flights safer and get rid of some bad policies.

Do not forget:
:mad: subtle elusive indirect pressure, which is the most dangerous! ...


I know for sure that the Cabin Crew for LoCo are under a lot more pressure than their equivalents working for BA for example, and we all know how essential is to have an alerted and healthy Cabin Crew in case of a serious incident (see recent AF in YYZ).

:mad:

....and Dear David is going to make the flights safer for you and get rid of the bad policies..........bad bad naught naughty policies

no NO.....it really REALLY was the tooth fairy.....

..balmy...
 

..balmy..certainly better than just completely denying that there is a real problem...or not? :)

:ok:

and..if this pressure is not affecting safety there is nothing to hide and there is nothing to be afraid of: why shall we be worried of an investigation if it is all so "legalised" within the LoCo operations?

Do not worry. Just let people say what they think.
Wait and see.


Or you need a few more accidents around the world before starting the thread all over again?


:sad: :ok:

Check out the Ryanair captain with about 1500 TT if you want a story

Yeah, why help to provide a clear picture when you can slag them off instead.

What a wonderful, open attitude.

normal_nigel:

I also had 1500 TT when I got my first command on 4-engined aircraft. I am still alive and kicking some 40 years later and have yet to break anything.

Sleuth:-

There is a filthy business and political culture in the UK. Dr David Kelly blew the whistle on the Government about Iraq. Look what happened to him.

Airlines will sue pilots or hound them out of the industry when they raise very minor issues about safety or otherwise irritate their employers.

What do you suppose would be the consequence for a pilot who was outed after blowing the whistle on the whole airline safety issue? How would his family suffer in years to come? How many pilots would have to speak directly to the press to make a difference? One? Ten? Fifty?

You will have to give some kind of contractual assurance that anyone who speaks to you has their legal defence indemnified by your parent company.

Please post your thoughts on these issues.

Aaah Yes YES.....now I see it....the PRESS is going to provide a clear picture on aviation. How remarkable that I did not see that sooner.....


No.... NO.... NO....it really really really was the tooth fairy.....and.....he was holding hands with Father Christmas….. I promise….. really really……


Seriously though.......the only point is that you will really not get any assistance from the press in getting a straight story about aviation.....please be very sure of one thing.......they have absolutely no interest whatsoever in aviation....their business is to sell papers (or magazines or whatever).....that means sensationalism........they have no interest in you and your problems.

I am not in any way speaking out against what you are saying is a problem....I have no knowledge about the rights or wrongs of that.....but taking it to the press is like taking you child to paedophile for counselling

Be warned.....anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you....