BA emergency landing yesterday at LHR
 

just for anyone's interest, G-BNLN 747-400 had to make an 'emergency' landing at heathrow yesterday due to a total loss of fluid in no. 2 hydraulic system. only 2 drivers on the whole thing, we had just despatched it from BA Cardiff, sphincters flexing in cardiff, turns out to be a cracked hydraulic pipe (not our fault butt!!) apparently cardiff tower told the drivers that there was something coming out the back of no. 2, but they had decided to plod on as EICAS told them everythin was just fine!!

Sorry, but where's the drama? Just off major maintenance on delivery back to LHR, 2 pilots, no passengers. Hardly an 'emergency' is it? Just a hydraulic leak- taking out one of the four hydraulic systems (one of the less important ones).

Poor old moo!
 

I see that moo's topic on the BA jumbo has been closed PDQ. I had hoped to be able to post there, but....... sorry mods for the thread split.

A few words of advice to 'Not-So', if I may:

I see from your previous posts that you appear to have set yourself up as an 'unofficial' RP moderator. I'm sure Danny would appreciate help in the future - have you approached him?

I feel you were a little harsh with 'moo' (a reasonably long-serving ppruner) there, and I hope you will accept a few words of advice from a perhaps more 'moderate' forum member?

Firstly, you took him to task for raising this 'reported point'. Whether it was 'an emergency' really depends on definition:-

Was one declared, or did it land 'secretly'?

Did the crew carry out any emergency check-list items?

Your call.

Secondly, I do feel this item is worthy of RP, IMHO, (but await the forum moderators decision on it, of course). 'moo' APPEARS to be involved in the maintenance of BA aircraft at Cardiff. Hence, an 'interest'. A semi-question raised as to why the crew APPEARED to ignore ATC warnings of a leak.

You appear to have detailed knowledge of both the incident and the systems involved. May I suggest a softer style of reply next time, perhaps to inform the forum readership of the system implications, and then perhaps to give an opinion on the nature of this 'emergency'?

If you ARE to be a pprune moderator, you will have to remain fairly 'neutral' - as the fine people here do (mostly!). You appear to react dramatically AGAINST anyone who criticises BA pilots and PRO anyone who criticises BA management and you really will have to try and stand back a bit more. I do hope you will look seriously at my advice.

Walt.

I understand that ATC consider a hydraulic failure on an aircraft to be an emergency situation. They will push the button that gets the blue lights flashing if you so much as whisper "hydraulic problem". Is that correct HD?

Perhaps certain people on this learned forum think ATC SOP's are wrong?

There was actually slightly more to it than a simple hydraulic leak, but, fortunately nothing to do with BAMC.
I've seen the trace;)

muchos gratzias flt_lt_w_mitty!! A whole subject dedicated to me!! I did wonder why the topic was locked out.........

notso, I do believe that I started my post "for anyone's interest", if you weren't all that interested then why didn't you just click the back button at the top left?? Granted, it aint front page of the 'Telegraph' material, but seein as my usual haunt is the wannabes forum, I kinda thought it may be a bit more appreciated here.
BAMC had a phone call on Sunday evening from Maintrol 30 mins after NLN departed EGFF - they were a lot pissed off to say the least, and said that NLN had just made an emergency landing at EGLL and basically that the **** would be hitting the fan in Cadiff in the morning. (stop me if i'm boring you notso)
It turns out (for anyone's interest) that a crack in one of the hydraulic pipes had been disturbed by us (as far as I am aware), and basically wasn't our fault that no. 2 hydraulic system failed.

I'm currently studying for my ATPLs and hope to get a RH seat one day, hopefully in a BA 747-400, hopefully not next to you notso!

I rest my case. p.s. thank you for your support!

That post deserved entry in RP.

744 EICAS has hyd. pressure on it - the fact that it apparently didn't show up is surely a point for future notice.

As a matter of fact one might beg the question - how'd they know
without EICAS telling them ?
Stab trim slow ?

Aren't you lucky mr. boeing put more than 1 pipe in then !

Distant Rumble, I think the flight crew got warned by at some stage by EICAS, but they must have been close enough to LHR to continue..

The loss of the #2 hydraulic system does not, in itself, cause many problems. The only items lost are the right autopilot and the system 2 alternate brake source. The stabiliser trim rate and spoiler capibilty are also reduced.
My main concern would be that the leaking fluid might come into contact with hot brakes on landing, so I might ask the firemen to have a look at it, but perhaps I'm just over-cautious.

Airclues

Hmmmmmm......someone seems to have touched a nerve here.

An aircraft on approach with the fault described would be automatically declared an emergency, regardless of whether there are 450 occupants or 2 occupants.

Therefore, moo's terminology is correct. This was an Emergency Landing.

Why get so upset about this?

Everything in aviation seems to be an 'emergency' even a tech stop for fuel it would seem. Boeing have tried to introduce the idea of 'non normal' but it doesn't seem to be sticking. By the way, has anyone tried setting fire to hydraulic fluid, almost impossible.

. . . If Skydrol is atomised, as it might be in a large leak to atmosphere, it burns real good !

As a 744 driver, I would have declared an emergency but not been overly worried by the loss of Hyd system 2. You lose use the right autopilot, the stab trim movement rate is reduced, you lose some spoiler capability and the alternate brakes. Bearing in mind you have normal and standby brakes, this is not too much of a problem.

Was it really 'major maintenance' at Cardiff?

The only reason I ask is that when my 40 year old aircraft type (which are all HMFC can afford) receives major maintenance at 'Scrapheap Challenge' just down the road from Rhoose, they're always given a very thorough Full Air Test before going back into service.

Mind you, flying those things from an aerodrome with narrow taxiways and only one 6000' runway after a total rebuild concentrates the mind somewhat.

4 hydraulic systems? Luxury!!

Sounds like the BA crew, not unsurprisingly, did the correct thing and yes, it would certainly require ATC to be informed if you were landing with a single hydraulic system fsilure.

The loss of one hydrulic system on the 747 is a non event .....but I worry that they might spray the skydrol over my car after all its the best paint stripper known to man !

BEagle, NLN was grounded for 50 DAYS!! A full 'D' Check with countless modifications, was glad to see the back of it!
We don't carry out flight tests, and i've never experienced a pressure test at BAMC in many years there. They don't like the fact you've got to pump the Jumbo up to around 25psi to simulate the correct pressure differential!!! We regularly change windscreens, windows and make repairs to the pressurised cabin (including Rear and forward pressure bulkheads) and still the only time its ever happened was during the Section 41 modifications to the classic fleet, and damn, were those drivers twitching!!!

Seriph Hydraulic oil not only burns but does so at an extremely high temperature, sufficient for a lot of surrounding materiel to reach it's flash point very quickly. As nilnotedks has already stated, once alight it will burn fiercely and in an atomized state it will ignite very easlily. After a cabin fire a wheel well fire is the most likely to require an immediate evacuation and will then destroy your aircraft, (ask Air France and others, B747).

Seriph - as some guys already mentioned, oil is extreamly flamable...However, if you try to light, for example, oil that is spiled out on the ground on fire you will have to work on that for quite a while. Not easy..The problem comes when oil is under hight pressure and "pushed" out through a cracked "tube"...Then the oil will be sprayed out in very fine drops and perfectly mixed with air...Now you have oxygen and a flamable fluid and all you need now is.....a source of heat...that could be ,as mentioned before, hot breaks or a fire......After two years with the Airport Fire depart. I know what I'm talking about.

Hi Bally Heck,

Yes, I can confirm that a hydraulic failure constitutes a "Full Emergency" from the ATC point of view, even though it might not be a major concern for the pilot. As has been pointed out, hydraulic fluid leaking onto hot brakes is a possible fire hazard, and who is to say that the situation might not deteriorate by the loss of further systems? I speak from experience after being on the flight deck of a SSC in the 80s which lost one, then another of its three hydraulic systems completely unexpectedly.

Controllers are never criticised for "over reacting" to emergences; far better to be safe than sorry, after all, if things really went pear shaped we would look a bit silly if there were no emergency services in attendance. The bad PR for the airline is not a consideration, I'm afraid.