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Sailvi767 29th May 2022 22:57

Sleeping pilot
 
If management is truly concerned the pilot fell asleep they would use a 3 man crew on trips of this length.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-high-jacking/

kenparry 30th May 2022 07:34

In the days before JAA, when Italy ran FTL under its own national rules, they could (and did) roster Rome to New York and return within a single duty period - and, I think, with only a 2-pilot crew.

vilas 30th May 2022 08:25

With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

Check Airman 30th May 2022 09:07


Originally Posted by vilas (Post 11237678)
With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

The events of the day seem to suggest otherwise. Some airlines crew flights with a third or fourth pilot, not because it’s strictly required, but because safety data indicates it makes good sense to do so.

BristolScout 30th May 2022 09:55

Back in pre-history - i.e. before 9/11 - a member of cabin crew would pop into the flight deck every twenty minutes or so to check that all was well. I'm pretty sure that the awareness of this helped to keep us focussed. Locked doors are not an unalloyed benefit.

Sailvi767 30th May 2022 12:59


Originally Posted by vilas (Post 11237678)
With controlled rest one of them can sleep. The flight time does not justify third pilot.

The US rules require a third pilot. NYC to Rome is not a short flight and controlled rest is basically a joke. To many things can interrupt such a rest and a cockpit seat is never great for sleep.

Youmightsaythat 30th May 2022 13:22

Someone should have warned the aviation establishment about fatigued pilots #ohholdon.I did.
I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.
So why is it pilots are complicit in this fatigue issue?

The following is taken from Book two;

“Ask yourself the following question. Would you make a stand in the interests of passenger and crew safety if you knew it would likely risk your career and position that you had spent decades and tens of thousands of pounds building? A career which, at least for the first few years, meant having no money and required two jobs to survive? Would you risk your family’s financial future and the probability that you could no longer service your financial commitments? Would you risk having your good name and reputation trashed, marked as “difficult”, labelled “dishonest” and have your “integrity” challenged by the industry establishment, all for doing the right thing?
If you concluded that no, you would not take a stand because of the enormous personal ramifications, don’t feel too bad. If you are reading this book sitting on an aircraft as a passenger, it will therefore come as no surprise that the two pilots currently sitting a few feet away from you in the cockpit will have quite likely come to the same conclusion, on more than one occasion. It’s not worth the personal upheaval to do the right thing. It’s just not worth upsetting management. Now, sit back, relax and enjoy your flight”


Excerpt "Pulling Wings from Butterflies - Tercio de Banderillas"

compressor stall 30th May 2022 13:34

What's the usual flight time(s)?

Bryan Kiing 30th May 2022 13:44

IMHO inexcusable to fall asleep.How do I deal with it? I think to myself of all the $ effort and time I spent to get 'up front' and say to myself..all gone if I nod off...THAT scares me awake !

VORDME2 30th May 2022 15:22


Originally Posted by kenparry (Post 11237666)
In the days before JAA, when Italy ran FTL under its own national rules, they could (and did) roster Rome to New York and return within a single duty period - and, I think, with only a 2-pilot crew.

it was 17hrs with 2pilots, 24hr with 3pilots and 3hrs extension (or discretion) in case of delay…😬

cessnapete 30th May 2022 15:31

I have noticed some US airlines operate 3 pilot across the Atlantic from East Coast. Not particularly long sectors 7/8 hours.
Most European Companies operate 2 crew.
BA for example operate all E Coast USA trips with a two pilot crew on all types, including the A380. Includes UK- Chicago, Washington , and Canada Montreal and Toronto etc.. Prestwick -Atlanta also was operated two crew on B4744F BA Cargo.
Controlled Rest is of course a UK CAA allowed procedure.


Nick 1 30th May 2022 16:21

Legal , in this case FTL vise , does not means safe .

vilas 30th May 2022 16:24


Originally Posted by Sailvi767 (Post 11237803)
The US rules require a third pilot. NYC to Rome is not a short flight and controlled rest is basically a joke. To many things can interrupt such a rest and a cockpit seat is never great for sleep.

There's no short flight or long flight. Regulations tell you categorically when relief pilot is required. Controlled rest has become a joke after it was allowed, ask me who flew in an era when it wasn't allowed. Anyway we discussed sometime back Airbus planning to do single pilot cruise on long flights in A350 with Cathay. I don't want to repeat that.

Mogwi 30th May 2022 16:35

I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.


As an author, perhaps you should proof-read your posts better. You will give us authors a bad name.

Mog


Sailvi767 30th May 2022 18:18


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 11237829)
What's the usual flight time(s)?

FCO to JFK in the winter is 10:30 to 10:45 block.

Youmightsaythat 30th May 2022 18:21


Originally Posted by Mogwi (Post 11237928)
I can' say to much because the contents of book two and three in the series Pulling Wings From Butterflies were presented to the police who are currently investigating the failures of the airlines and regulators to deal with fatigue issues.

Its the story of the aviation establishment don't want told, pilots and cabin crew are afraid to tell but passengers need to know.


As an author, perhaps you should proof-read your posts better. You will give us authors a bad name.

Mog

When you are as busy as I am, you will have to put up with the odd issue ;)

Youmightsaythat 30th May 2022 18:25

A common misconception. Just complying with FDP does not make it legal. It also has to comply with EU ops legislation regarding fatigue.

Emma Royds 30th May 2022 18:45

Maybe they were just training for what is around the corner: :E

EASA Extended Minimum Crew Operations – Single Pilot Operations


oceancrosser 30th May 2022 19:30


Originally Posted by Check Airman (Post 11237697)
The events of the day seem to suggest otherwise. Some airlines crew flights with a third or fourth pilot, not because it’s strictly required, but because safety data indicates it makes good sense to do so.

I would really like to see a list of airlines that assign more pilots to flights than absolutely required, either by authorities or contracts…

Alpine Flyer 30th May 2022 19:53

Controlled rest is a contingency procedure and should not be used to plan otherwise unsafe duties. It is not only the duration but also the time of day and the sequence of duties that matters. There is a difference between one and two nights in New York and afternoon and evening departures. There is nothing that will keep you from falling asleep on the flight deck if you're tired enough.


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