Check Airman

Clearly there are, but I don't for a minute believe their voice overrides the significant vested interest of others...

dartman2

In the good old days of aviation we used to have to carry a yellow booklet showing our up to date status of vaccinations for yellow fever, cholera and something else that I have forgotten. If QF require you to carry the COVID version of this document you can always fly somebody else

Wilbur and Orville flew the A model as did Richard Pearse. If they hadn't it is possible that none of you would be airborne at all.

Check Airman

Unfortunately the 2019 version of "normal" will never return - for anybody.

dartman2

...and here we come to the nub for most anti vax people; most of their other arguments being mere obfuscation.

Why don’t you outline what ‘others’ you are speaking about and what is their motivation? Then we can argue about what you actually believe, rather than dance around pretending to be discussing medical issues.

Blackout

I know Doctors and Nurses that are or have worked in ICU and Infectious Diseases , including family members.
You do not want to get this disease.
Or are you going to be one of those whose dying words are “ This cant be happening , its a conspiracy” ?

dr dre

Yep, and quite rightly they should, speaking as a parent whose youngest spent 3 weeks attached to a ventilator when she was 3 weeks old because a child at her siblings nursery had an anti-vax parent, and their kid had pertussis and infected several kids in the area. Whilst she was in PICU my daughter came out unscathed, one of three kids, four died and three were left brain damaged,

There's no doubt in my mind that you want nothing but the best for you and your family- as we all do, but quite often, our instinctive reaction isn't correct, and we need to defer to the experience and expertise of others, no?

I have to say I'm shocked by the level of discussion on here. Surely this is not a forum for Antivax misinformation. I.e H1N1 is a Coronavirus (post 3) It's not!
I am a trained microbiologist and would have absolutely no issues with taking the Oxford and Pfizer vaccines. I would like to know more about the Moderna vaccine, Simply because they are a company who have never had a product licensed before. If Qantas choose to require vaccination surely that's a company decision they are at liberty to take. If that upsets the antivax brigade surely they can just fly with another airline. A question not yet raised on here is Insurance. Next year I can well imagine that travel insurance companies will have separate policies (more expensive?) for people who choose not to be vaccinated, as they will pose a greater risk of falling ill whilst on their Summer trip to the sun. This may change a few minds.

CDC fears people will refrain from getting the second shot as the first might have bad side effects.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/covi...the-park-.html

What worries me most is the attitude, to partially quote Isaac Asimov, that “my ignorance is as good as your knowledge”. It seems that the more unlikely the theory and the more unverified the source, the more likely it is that people believe in it.

There are collectively millions of man-years of study, experience and expertise in the World’s health organisations but that is nothing compared to some unqualified idiot on YouTube who got everything they know about diseases from the back of a cereal packet. Fortunately, this type of person and their adherents are in the extreme minority, but unfortunately they are very vocal and opinionated about things they don’t understand.

There are also those who may be educated and have the ability to comprehend, but choose to examine only the data that supports their point of view, which makes a nonsense of any conclusions they might draw. This is one of the first lessons in science: garbage in, garbage out.

Ignoring all of the above and given the stance of most governments towards relaxing quarantines and lockdowns, from a position of pure self-interest it would be better to support the widespread use of vaccines to return to a semblance of normality?

If some of you tinfoil nutjobs actually fly, let me know which airline so I can avoid; their psychometric tests clearly aren’t up to scratch!

Good luck with your gut flora 😂

I think gut flora is the least of his problems.

When the vaccines are available, you don’t get into my cockpit without being vaccinated.

Of course I agree that medical experts and scientists are the authority on the topic, and I would much rather have their opinion that anyone on this forum :8 which is why I would be hesitant in getting this vaccine. I have 4 medical professionals in my family, and even they are still debating this topic. Joining paperwork for my airline Dubai (where I no longer work thanks to Covid), required various vaccinations. The lady who gave them to me happened to be a specialist in communicable diseases and I remember her being surprised at some of the vaccines that were required. I had already had a few (yellow fever etc) and she was happy to give some; but she definitely hesitated and voiced concerns on 1 or 2. I hadn't even considered the fact that a doctor would be uncomfortable with this sort of thing. She mentioned that I was young and healthy and that there were extremely small chances of bad reactions (she mentioned seizures and brain damage), and she was clearly weighing up the pros and cons. My shiny jet syndrome wasn't listening to a word and I got the jabs and paperwork, but that evening was the first time in my life that I realised that neither sides of the argument can be disregarded completely.

Having had Covid 3 weeks ago (it felt like a mild cold if I'm honest) if it were up to me I probably wouldn't chose to get vaccinated. However, I am running out of money fast in my new job delivering pizzas so I'd probably risk the vaccine if it meant getting back to a first world country and a decent salary.

Am definitely not an “Anti Vaxxer”, always argue the pro vax route (I seriously get how important it), but where does Joyce get off being not only an advocate, but a demander for what seems a very quickly (albeit admittedly a necessity) vaccine that has yet to pass its final testing prior to release.

Shouldn’t decision such as that be the realm of Governments, or Scientist that work in the field.

And where does his advocation end, or what does he seek..he has already said his International airline won’t carry pax that are not vaccinated (and apparently undecided on Domestic), but will he next seek.the power to sack Tech and Cabin Crew, Engineering, Checkin Staff, Baggage, Lounge staff, etc etc that won’t take the vaccine,

Anyway, I totally hope the vaccine works, I do, but add there is not much to convince me atm to become a guinea pig straight up.

Guess my travel will be a road trip, at least until there is a year or so to prove the Vaccine safe....I remember the horror stories of thalidomide which was thought very broadly to be safe for all.

And yes, I get the need for vaccines for measles, polio, flu shots etc etc...so as stated not an an anti vaxxer at all.

arkmark

It’s certainly a brave position he’s taken. He mentions anti-Covid vaccine travellers will find it difficult to source other carriers who won’t have this restriction so it’ll be interesting to see what other airlines come out in support of such a policy.

Perhaps the OneWorld Group airlines have already largely agreed to sign up to it.

I feel it’s way out of proportion for the problem that is Covid. Were SARS, MERS and flu deaths less valuable to the world? I think Covid ranks 19th in the U.K. for death causes.

I’ve always said, if the leaders of governments and industries came out early, in one go and said, when all this is over it’ll be required vaccines for concerts (ticketmaster) and eHealth passports and Freedom Passes etc. there’d be rightfully large scale pushback.

Instead we have this drip drip piecemeal approach where the frogs don’t realise they’re being boiled. There’s a reason for that approach.

It's a bit over the top and quite intrusive for an airline to demand vaccinations from paying customers. This should be left to decide by governments only. Airlines do it not balancing health risks versus fighting some pandemic in the name of society's well being but just for their private business purposes. I hope they get stopped. THIS is not their business at all.

Logic?
 

The most common argument I hear from those not wanting to vaccinate their kids or themselves is "Why would I take the risk?" Well:

1. The risk of "vaccine injury" or death from taking a approved vaccine is infinitely smaller than the risk of catching a communicable disease and further infinitely smaller than dying from it.
Related - the lower the number of vaccinated people in a given population the higher the prevalence of these diseases.

So those against vaccination have no statistical or scientific argument to offer as the basis for their claims or decisions. None. And choosing to avoid a minuscule personal risk at the expense of increasing the general risk to society is purely selfish, plain and simple.

That said, I will defend anyone's right to make that choice. It is your body. But I will also defend the consequences of that decision. These include you not being able to be a part of certain things set up by a caring society including daycares, schools, and transportation. I will also defend the rights of myself and others who trust science and logic to call out ignorant and selfish behavior.

Most of us understand that seat belts save lives and wear them. Yet, there will be that one case here and there where someone may have survived a collision if they were thrown from the car through the windshield instead of left to burn unconscious and strapped in during a post crash fire. Do you wear a seatbelt? Get your shots.

This vaccine has been rushed to availability and not been carefully examined like had been required before. The sudden presentation of at least two vaccines seems to correlate to the US presidential election. Maybe it was rushed again to be available in time? While I agree that some fully developed vaccination will make a lot of sense it is warranted to be sceptical about what is made available right now. To try to force it on people with all the known shortcuts that had to be taken is even wilder.

It feels a bit like those aircraft rushed through development in WW2. Having known deficits but built by the thousands anyway.

Totally concur. No cert , no travel. Airlines don't have to take you if you will not fulfil their terms of carriage. If you don't want to take the vaccine, well you don't fly with others. That simple. It is that simple.

It's amusing to see heavy smokers and people who drink excessive amounts of alcohol, but won't get vaccinated because they are "concerned for their health". My god, how have we become that stupid.

Get the bloody vaccine ya big girls blouses.

Qantas aircraft are private property, any owner of private property is free to impose any conditions they like. If you don;t like the conditions, you don't have to enter.

At the very least, learn how the dam things work before sprouting intellectual jibba jabber.

http://www.violinet.org/docs/undvacc.pdf

That is quite easily answered. From the official monthly mortality analysis for England and Wales:

"In October 2020, there were 43,265 deaths registered in England, 2,713 deaths more than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for October; in Wales, there were 2,992 deaths registered, 258 deaths more than the five-year average for October.".

So in England on average, in October, approximately 1352 deaths per day. This year: approx 1442; or, approx 90 a day more than usual.

I still have my WHO international certificate of vaccination for yellow fever, the vaccination is not very effective as still find Asians attractive.

It is true that some people have serious side effects to vaccines, be those people with egg allergies and the flu shot or others. What is disingenuous is that vaccines are administered under medical supervision. They would either have to wait in the surgery for a period of time after receiving the vaccination and then told if any sort of reaction takes place to to call an ambulance.

A vaccine does not make a virus any less virulent, what it does is prevents one infected person to cause widespread infections as more people they come in contact with either have immunity for having the virus or have been vaccinated do not become infected. It is unlikely that that community infection rate will be zero, however the community transmission rate will be far lower. Where vaccines will save more lives is for people people who come in contact with those in higher risk, if they have been vaccinated they will not transmit the virus to those who are most vulnerable, and may themselves be unable to get vaccinated.

The insurance companies may simply decline to provide insurance unless a vaccination record is obtained prior to travel. They already do similar when traveling to countries where diseases are known and vaccinations are available, they won’t cover you. They may for example cover someone to NZ that hasn’t been vaccinated however not cover travel to the US.

Might call this the Max vaccine keeping in mind that all pharmaceutical companies are profit driven just like B.

The word rush is open to interpretation. Looking back at the Salk and Sabin tests, the studies were of short duration relatively speaking - some might have called them rushed in retrospect. I got the shot and the sugar cube. I would say I'm less concerned about the rush to develop it (wish they could cure cancer with that kind of effort), but more concerned with the rush to manufacture and distribute and there is precedent for that concern. The Cutter production issues of Salk is one example.

I doubt a few major pharmaceuticals will be able to push out the quantity required world wide, so out-sourcing is likely. Who produces the concoction that they want to inject into my family? Are they going to sub to New England Compounding (might want to read that episode in 2012 in which people getting epidurals wound up with meningitis - 100 died of 14,000 administered - a bit more significant percentage than the 1 in 100,000 that seems to be the norm quoted everywhere for severe adverse reactions)? Quality control then becomes an important metric, the data for which likely won't surface for some time due to the vast amounts of potential injectees. And one can never discount the potential for permanent risk (Swine Flu and GBS - see CDC website on historical safety).

Scientists aren't infallible (except for Einstein maybe). Corporations are immensely capable of mistakes in judgement, faulty production, and design. We have always reviewed efficacy vs. risk in administration of 'new' vaccines. Yes, our 5 kids got MMR and DPT, but we drew the line initially on Chicken Pox. Our 3 oldest got it on their own accord. Our two youngest received the vaccine or we would have had to home school them. We have no idea if that was a prudent decision and only decades after we are gone, will the data likely be available to confirm.

I contracted encephalitis when younger. Of the 12 cases diagnosed in my state that year, I was the only person to survive. Ruined my flying career but oh well. Now, it really is beyond belief but I can get an encephalitis vaccine for my horses but not for me. Why not? Profit and they put the word equine in front of it.

Working in a military environment where everyone gets every vaccine known to mankind prior to deployment, the results are unclear. I have heard some horror stories. I will say I do not trust the Government to make health decisions on my families behalf. To have an airline CEO make that decision for me is beyond the pale. Suffice to say, we will never fly again by choice - and that is sad - I love to fly but not enough to show my medical records prior to boarding.

So you routinely accept the minuscule risk inherent in flying but won't accept the even more minuscule risk in vaccination? Nobody ever said that vaccination is 100% safe - nothing is. Billions of vaccines have been administered, but aside from the anecdotal 'horror stories', the fact that you cite an example of vaccine injury (the Cutter incident) dating back more than 60 years should indicate to you that perhaps any vaccine risk is in fact very low.

You can get a jab for some encephalitis causes, Japanese and Tick for example,. Causes of encephalitis include viruses such as herpes simplexvirus and rabies as well as bacteria, fungi, or parasites. Other causes include autoimmune diseases and certain medications. In many cases the cause remains unknown. Risk factors include a weak immune system.QF is respecting the rights of folks who don't want to be with antivaxxers, you can't please everyone, the majority win.

It is one of modern lifes great mysteries that one of the truely great inventions of modern medicine that has save countless millions of lives , namely vaccination , has ended up in this place.
Why do people feel the need to express opinions about subjects they know nothing about ?
Why do stupid people feel that they can argue with people with years of qualifications and experience ?
Why is trust in institutions so low ?
Fin de siècle?
Is the run of the Enlightenment over ?
Social media ?
Because one thing is for certain. If the anti-vaxers and wacko fellow travellers ever become a majority we are done.
China wins.
Game over. Long slow,inevitable decline.
FFS get a grip people.
Compulsory vaccination was standard 50 years ago.
It exterminated smallpox.
FFS

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" - Isaac Asimov

Surely the QANTAS decision is purely commercial. If a passenger contracts Covid-19 on one of their flights, especially if the USA is involved, they might be held liable. They would therefore wish to take all reasonable precautions against that risk: both because they wouldn't want anyone to be infected, and because, if they were, such an action would be part of a defence against accusations of negligence; again, a reasonable precaution against having their ass sued off.

Nothing to do with governmental over-reach, New World Order, Bill Gates, or the threat to our vital bodily fluids.

The debate here shows we've lost the ability to have nuanced discussion. If you're not an unreserved advocate for immediate COVID vaccination well then you're an "anti-vaxxer." There's no allowance for anything in between.

I have all the usual vaccinations. My children have them as well; I never questioned it. There is a difference between well-established safe vaccinations against diseases with high mortality or serious lasting effects among children and young healthy people and vaccinations against a virus with a mortality slightly higher than a bad flu mostly limited to the very old. Especially for a virus that we learned about 10 months ago, for vaccines that have been rushed through the normal protocols, with only preliminary results as to efficacy, by pharmaceutical companies that have been granted immunity from any liability. For them this situation is is as close to a license to print money as they ever get. Surely there is no chance they would take any shortcuts, cherry pick their data, or bury unfavorable results. On top of all that, it happened in an election cycle and the media and the candidates made it a wedge issue.

By all means if you are old or otherwise high risk or just feel the need, and feel safer with a vaccine, then queue up.

I will wait until the hysteria dies down, look at what we know at that time, and make my own decision. If that makes me an anti-vaxxer in your mind, that is your problem.

ams
There are, to be sure, rational grounds for being cautious about the new vaccines: chiefly, that the only way to find out about long-term consequences is to let a long time pass. I can well understand a young person, in good health, concluding that they would rather take the risk of catching the disease than being one of the first to be vaccinated. This also makes it easy to decide the initial allocation of vaccine: it should go to those who are most at risk, and have least reason to be concerned about the long run (you know who you are: get a new credit card, look at the expiry date, and you're all "Hmm, I wonder...").

The problem is that even such rational concerns have got caught up in the politicisation of reality. As far as I know, Big Pharma does not make Big Money out of vaccines: what the pharma companies like are patented drugs that are important for the chronic management of diseases of the affluent. Similarly, outrage about the suggestion of vaccination being conditional for any activity is tied up with belief that the pandemic has been weaponised as a political wedge issue. Like so many other sad things, "only in America"; and it's not the people who want sensible public health measures who are weaponising it. The reason that rational hesitations get lumped in with the bat-shirt crazy is that even the rational gets entangled with the irrational.

ams6110

And how are you able to distinguish, with what I assume is minimal medical or scientific knowledge, whether or not the vaccine will safe beyond the large array of scientists, researchers, health experts, doctors etc who will have already put this vaccine through an incredibly thorough approval process?

I'll refer to Isaac Asimov's quote made earlier on this thread - "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".

Yes, in a free society you can be allowed to refuse vaccination. But don't be surprised when you are shunned by the rest of society and things like air travel and your kids being allowed to attend school are denied to you.

Apologies if I've missed it - but how will you prove to Qantas that you've been vaccinated?

International Certificate of Vaccination passport. It's a yellow hardcopy booklet that any traveler who's needed vaccinations to travel to some nations will be familiar with, but new technology may allow a digital passport to be used as well.

It will probably be required to be shown to Customs or Quarantine staff over airline staff.

This is the question I often ask. How does your training in aviation make you a sufficient authority on biomedical matters that you think you can argue with people who have decades of experience in that field?

There seems an awful lot of people here who object to be called ‘anti-vax, ’ yet are in fact ....anti vaccination.


‘Big Pharma!’
‘Government conspiracy!’
‘It’s my body, I will not be dictated to!’

All straight out of the anti-vax line of bs.
Don’t kid yourselves. You’re right there with the unscientific, self absorbed, Dunning-Kruger exemplars.

It doesn't.

It all comes down to conspiracy theorists, people who want to feel smarter than the "so called experts", the Dunning Kruger effect, well meaning people unfortunately influenced by persuasive voices in media and social media and those with an ideological agenda.

Having a browse at the biographies of the development team of one of the vaccines, I can see university professor, Pharmaceutical Science head, immunotherapy association President, Chief Medical Officer and doctorates in Medicine. So unless some of the ones here think they know more about vaccines than the above people having secretly been moonlighting as vaccine researchers then they are totally full of it, and are spreading misinformation en masse. Disinformation and discredited theories have already taken a toll on healthcare workers and have probably exacerbated the spread of the virus. My hope is these discredited opinions are very quickly debunked by informed professionals.

I don’t think this discussion is a debate by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve not seen one interview with a medical expert who has questioned the safety of the new vaccines being unveiled. In fact the experts I have seen have said that all vaccines in the past had a risk associated with them. The point is that the tiny risk vastly outweighed the damage that the diseases could incur. Vaccines, like aviation, are never going to one hundred percent safe.

There’s an interesting article on the BBC website where they interview one of the scientists involved in the Oxford vaccine. She explains how her team, after witnessing the effects of SARS and MERS, were waiting for the next respiratory virus to occur. When she heard the reports emanating from Wuhan of a mystery virus the team went into action. The same article also explains how a process that would normally take years was streamlined. Not by cutting corners but that a lot of the delays in the past were procedural like getting approval and funding. I think there is an analogy with aviation development during the two world wars. Then the R&D community were throwing the kitchen sink into solving hitherto difficult problems.

The other thing that has been discussed is the issue of whether an airline should or could mandate vaccination before allowing a passenger that fly. If they make it compulsory then fair enough. If the anti vax brigade object then just find another airline to go with. The only problem I suspect they’ll have is that governments might mandate a vaccination certificate before entry irrespective of how you enter the country. Good luck!

evyjet

Thank you for proving my point! One of the scientists I’ve watched explained that the virus does NOT affect the DNA. My non medical understanding is that some of the vaccines effectively “tip off” the immune system as to the presence of the virus. I’ve read the term messenger RNA in respect of the way the vaccine works. I freely confess I have no idea what the difference between DNA and RNA which is why I listen to those that do.

Maybe Mr. Joyce should set an example and get the first vaccination himself to report about it before he requests others to get one?

I was reading this thread, getting depressed at the number of people who have no idea about the simplest of scientific principles, and then I got to “the vaccine alters the host’s DNA” which gave me a good laugh!

Please tell me that you are not all professional pilots!

The good news is that we can simply ignore the anti vaxxers. We only need to vaccinate just over half a population with a 95% efficacy vaccine to get herd immunity.

Many of our countries have 70% of the population happy, willing, indeed keen to be vaccinated. Most of the remaining 30% are not anti vaxxers but merely people who dont want to go first, who have questions or who doubt the advantage of suppression. To those who want indeed deserve more information can I answer two of the issues raised in previous posts?

First it is not true that Pfizer or anyone else has been given legal immunity for this vaccine. Vaccines have been treated differently from drugs for many years and countries have agreed to assume legal responsibility for complications with licensed vaccines as liability resting with manufacturers was shown to fail claimants. The mechanism varies from country to country but ensures good uptake and a much simplified method of managing any complications that arise. The current Covid 19 vaccines are merely being dealt with in exactly the same way using current legislations

Second the idea of rushing through testing is misleading. Science has been fantastic at identifying the virus, mapping the DNA and developing mRNA vaccines. We would have taken years to do so a decade ago, but it is because of research and development of these methods for cancer treatment. The actual testing of a vaccine however is not the same as the testing for a drug. When we test a drug we need to give it to X thousand people and see what happens. When we test a vaccine we give it until we get so many cases of the disease and then deblind the study to see if more placebo recipients became ill than vaccinated volunteers. Because we have had so many million cases of Covid 19 we have been able to vaccinate enough people with vaccine or placebo to reach enough volunteers who became ill much faster than if we were studying a vaccine for a less common infection. The Phase 1, 2 and 3 studies are as robust as any other vaccine.

As a doctor I will be first in line to be vaccinated as soon as it is offered and I know almost all healthcare workers feel the same. Together with 70% of our populations who want the vaccine we can suppress Covid 19, hopefully within 6 months, and even save the lives of the anti vaxxers. Ironic