Bindair Dundat

That is indeed what is wrong with the industry at this time. Solidarity has never happened, even within the various groups and def. not within those who are pilots.

PilotLZ

Yes agree, same as with married life with your partner in fact ..:E Who would have predicted, even believed 6 months ago that the USA with all their might , money and modern technology would be the hardest country in the world hit with the virus , and still unable to fix it as we speak .
In Europe July traffic is showing signs of rebound , but what is happening in the beaches, bars and restaurants at the moment might nullify this in a few weeks..
Crazy and frightening times...

My exact fear too. I get the impression that a large section of the European population have already classified the virus as no longer a threat and are rapidly dropping their guard. The result may well be catastrophic in the months to come.

Or just as likely it may well not be.

You can't endlessly play with people's fear to make them comply - and, unfortunately and unwisely, that's precisely what most governments did. At some point, people grew sick and tired of constantly being threatened and fell into denial as means of protecting themselves. Now that even the WHO already claim that complete containment of the virus is extremely unlikely anytime soon, people will have to learn to live with it. Sadly, there's a good chance that the lesson will be learned the hard way.

Well this PILOTS forum as you might have noticed does have other sub forums, for those of us involved in aviation. Or would you like us all to leave so that you can moan a bit more.

You mean like this, headline story on French lunchtime news today

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/fait...rty-1594573707

"Surprise" rave, 4000 plus, not a sign of any attempt at social distancing, very few masks;

Local authorities basically decided best approach was to get the sapeurs-pompiers on to the site to provide first aid, hand out masks and gel and also provide a fire watch.

I guess the attitude of those attending was that they are generally not in an at risk group, that might be fine for them but might bit of a problem for their extended family members.

Cut the guys some slack
 

Many of you are correct in pointing out that this forum is not exclusively for pilots. However, someone started this thread as a conduit for pilots to discuss their specific situation.

If cabin crew or engineers want to have a similar discussion you are welcome to start a thread of your own within this very same forum. Why feel the need to hijack and guilt-trip the pilots for wanting a safe-space to air their grievances with individuals who are in a similar situation to themselves and therefore able to empathise?

Where do you suggest the pilots should go if they are not allowed to have a thread to themselves?

I would suggest that the argument some have to brand the pilots as arrogant and self centered is a little specious if you have come into a thread discussing pilots (as a non pilot) and started to hurl abuse.

Would you go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and complain that nobody wants to hear about your gambling addiction?!

Seriously, if you can’t say anything nice...

I very much dislike any "xyz ... lives matter" sentiments. ALL lives matter.

About pilots and the situation that they are (mostly) in, yup, the same as just about everyone else in the aviation industry. And a lot of people in many other industries.

However, pilots are amongst the highest earners in society so they have had ample opportunity to save something for that 'rainy day'. (Yes, I know this is more like a heavy thunderstorm.)

Regarding the huge training loans, one has to question getting hugely into debt to 'invest' in an unstable career. Every ten years or so the industry takes a hammering (1st Gulf War, '9/11', financial crash) with job losses and airline failures. On top of that is the risk of medical problems. And so it goes on. That is a very, very high risk 'investment' (that I doubt many financial advisers would advise?), especially to get into debt for it. There are more 'piecemeal' and less financially draining ways of training, but none of the "want it now" lot are prepared to do something that involves more common sense and is less 'cool'.

As regards a pilot's licence (ATPL) equating to a bachelor degree, they are entirely different: one is training for a 'technical' qualification, the other is education for an academic qualification.

Yes, things are tough. Very, very tough. For many, many people. Not just pilots. And all their lives matter.

So... Don't try to blame others. Don't think that you deserve 'special' treatment. (Much of the public see you as already starting with these present problems in a more 'privileged' position.) This is a huge shock for everyone. Try to get through it not feeling that you are a victim of actions of others. You are a victim of the same thing that is hitting everyone else. And, I'll repeat it, all their lives matter.

Aviation helped to spread this problem. BUT aviation has probably done more than most industries to promote world peace over the past half-a-century or more, by promoting trade and travel: people are far less likely to want to go to war with people that they met on holiday. People need to get back to travelling, so speak to all your friends and neighbours and tell them how safe and good air travel is for them. That is a first step towards helping yourselves.

But please ditch this discriminatory "xyz ... lives matter".

Well said Noel..

but ATPL needs to transform into an Academic training once again, just like it was before bloody JAR/FCL!

Most young FO’s can’t even recognise clouds or interpret weather charts anymore, let alone understand the workings of a laser gyro or how Radio Navigation has developed into what it is now.

Strongly disagree.
Every college/university can be qualified as "technical qualification". If You go to Med school You are not qualified to become a lawyer or an economist.
The ATPL theory per se, if done properly, could be easily compared with a bachelor's degree. If You add all the tons of extra info that as a pilot You go through or will at a certain point of Your career (type ratings, training qualifications, constant reading updates, etc..) it becomes certainly not less than University stuff.
Source : myself and a bachelor's in Law (although never worked with it).

In large measure, I agree Bob, but would go further; by title/definition, this IS a PILOTS' forum.
It is interesting that others, not being commercial or transport, contribute and their opinions can be complementary, but I view them as "guests" and they should behave accordingly. Sadly, what once was a more intimate and specialist forum has become a sort of extension to Facebook; this is particularly evident in the snake-pits lurking in JB where many (most?) have no apparent involvement with aviation at any level. I get particularly incensed by references to pilots' remuneration shielding them from the worst of the viral and similar consequences. These references habitually fail to recognise that pilots also make the greatest personal investments in their profession.

I think I’d buy Bob and gypsy a beer .

Some of you have “spat the dummy”,comparing yourself with nurses, ludicrous!
Yes it’s awful, but you ‘literally’ pay your money and take your choices, the value of your investments may go down,as well as up.If you’d like some consolation from fellow professionals, show a little humility.
By the by, if you choose the right Masters your ATPL is the equivalent of a first degree, take a look at London City’s Aviation Masters courses.

​​​​​​Harsh as it sounds this is the crux of the matter (IMHO) and what makes the pilot situation unique and so painful. In the cold light of day, becoming a pilot in this era is a gamble (or an investment if you prefer). You pay your £100k+, and you're essentially fast-tracked into a highly respectable career with good earning potential. Compare that to doctors, lawyers, architects etc; 5yrs+ (and debt) and you're still only on the bottom rung of the profession. The downside is that aviation is a volatile industry and vulnerable to shocks. I've lost count of the number of threads I've seen pilots telling potential trainees that is a very cyclic industry, and to have a plan B in place before you sign up. Sadly, that's probably easy to overlook with talk of pilot shortages and ATOs selling the dream.

​​​You could write a dissertation for your ATPL degree on how we got to where we are, but it's no comfort to anyone currently staring down the barrel of a gun. I went to flight school in my thirties and I'm very lucky with my circumstances (for now), but my heart absolutely breaks for classmates and more recent graduates who are still in debt and don't know if there will be jobs for them on the other side.

Meester
 

That is a very kind offer but there is no need. Remember I have no dog in this fight. I am a military pilot but have a lot of friends who are hugely affected. I’m very lucky and Covid hasn’t affected me financially but why must we all race to the bottom?

Does it remind anyone of the Monty Python sketch? The one where they compete about who had a harder upbringing?

Of course pilots aren’t special but they are allowed to have a whinge just like everyone else.

Why does it need to transform into an academic qualification?

Not once in my career would an intimate technical knowledge of a laser gyro have added anything useful to the situation. I'm yet to meet an FO who can't interpret a weather chart or who couldn't "recognise clouds".

1 - because it adds extra value to the profession, i.e. You do not hold the same education level of a cab or truck driver (with all due respect). This becomes important when negotiating T&Cs.
2 - from a social point of view, You hold the same education as the above mentioned categories (and many more - again no disrespect intended) unless You have some other qualifications on the side. Now, I believe being a Professional Pilot involves a slighter higher degree of intellectual and cognitive skills - let alone the amount of study material - than a plumber, but in terms of education there is a very minor difference.
3 - As a bachelor's holder myself, I can 100% vouch to award an academic education to ATPLs, definitely with some extra conditions to be added and agreed upon.

guy_incognito

An ATPL at the current level should equip you to read the charts, if you go to degree level knowledge I'd suggest the candidate would need a deeper understanding of what lies beneath.

For example back in the day as an ATPL holder you simply needed to know that HF generally worked best on lower frequencies at night..the Physics graduate in the RHS :8 might actually have known why in some detail why that was that case but that knowledge definitely wasn't required...

Pretty much any subject can be brought up to a three year degree level course if given enough content and or depth (witness some courses at UK Uni's), but the emphasis and selling point for the ATPL seems (at least until recently) to get the qualification ASAP/PDQ..anything above minimum course content conflicts with that mission and would add to the cost.

Now if the ATOs can sell a 90 week or more academic plus flying package when aviation gets back to normal, then, just maybe, it will be worth discussing the merits of the ATPL being degree equivalent..until then.