Dunno where you got your MBA but my school (Cranfield) certainly didn't teach that.

Well, we can all theorise, but I know what I'm telling my children (and not for the first time): DO NOT BECOME A CAREER PILOT. You're a one trick pony with nothing else to do in an amazingly volatile industry that can be grounded in seconds. Don't bother messing with your life like that. It's too late for me, but not for them. I greatly sympathise with those who've just spent the money to qualify. I have a tertiary qualification in an engineering field; there is zero chance a company would take me over a fresh graduate, as I have the briefest experience in the field, and that was fifteen years ago. All my family and friends with in other industries are back at work, in most cases they never stopped as alternate plans could be made (work from home etc). This career can become a dead end in moments - it always has been the case ie. loss of medical, but now it's plain for all to see just how damaging any world event is. I sincerely hope that school leavers think VERY long and hard about a career in aviation. As I said, the young people whom I most care about in this world get told in no uncertain terms what I think.

Indeed 70 Mustang. My nephew mentioned in previous post, had just got himself in a pilot training company, where his experience could be paid one again and less than two months later? Lockdown. He has no idea if that job will ever return. Not least as he was last in the door.

In the past couple of days, I've read articles about other industries that have had changed forced upon them, or were already changing.

Movie making has already seen 'green screen' replace a lot of location shooting (ie travel). Now they are starting to use a combination of gaming video technology in action movies and beyond. They use very large 'LED walls' rather than green screen, so they can project the background at the time of filming. One example was for a film I have not seen (Rocketman) in the scene where the actor playing Elton John was meant to be in Shea Satdium NYC, it was filmed in the UK studio with the whole stadium and thousands of 'extras' on LED walls. So all the extras were not employed and no one had to fly to New York.

This year, Fashion Shows have gone online. All those designers, magazine people, models and staff were not flying the world. They might not be a large group but they are indicative of the changes.

In the UK, shopping malls were already in big financial trouble before Covid19. People buying online, avoiding old style High Streets? All was happening before. One of our largest shopping mall owners (Intu) has now gone bust. This past week, two major high street retailers (John Lewis and Boots) have announced store closures.

The Independent: "John Lewis says that between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of its sales will be made online this year. Last year, it was 40 per cent "

That is staff who will not be travelling the world to buy goods and staff not serving customers and so they will not be going on overseas holidays, possibly for some time.

As I said before, many of these trends were in process and Covid19 has simply pushed them to the front.

Pax, sorrry your analysis is so overdone. The truth of what will occur lies somewhere in the middle. Your outlook ignores the fundamental of what being human is all about, at our core we are social animals. Fashion will not revert online, business travel will be less for awhile and what makes sense. Costs play a huge part but once the fear subsides and treatment and/or vaccine happen people will do what people do, congregate, explore, travel. Once people can park zoom for awhile they absolutely will. Not one person I know is willing to assume this bizarre new normal. Your comments are indicative of someone who wished they were a pilot but didn’t do it or cut it.

Jeez, you really think pilots are special. Quite sad.

Hint: Even the ones with 100k loans were well off enough the bank gave them one.

Some of you guys might not have realised this is a pilot's forum. Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?

​​​​​​Well there's certainly an odd mindset around FD, and something/somebody has encouraged it. It's not that long ago we had the poster who seemed to think having a Class One meant you were some sort of superman/woman and now we have this thread.

Yes the industry is being utterly brutal at the moment to everybody who is involved it in, yes there's lots of scope for distraction on the Flight Deck, but the idea that somehow pilots have to be put in a cushioned box and specially protected from reality.....:ooh:

Oh and in the context of the parallel discussion about youngsters going into the industry... Having "made the cut" ;) routinely with over 45 years of flying and having seen the way it was headed before Covid/coronovirus I'm another one who told their now grown up kids not to touch the industry with a barge pole...

I have also been telling my kids not to take up a career as a pilot, mainly due to how volatile a career it is and it's much easier said than done to have a viable backup plan. Unless you can keep your hand in with a second profession throughout your flying career it's going to be very difficult to fall back on a previous career, experience or education when it's 10+ years out of date (even more so in todays job market). For that reason, I hope permanent part time contracts become more easily available ro those who want them. They could give pilots a fighting chance to diversify on the side. A couple of colleagues managed to build a property empire on the side and now have a second income to give them some breathing space...great idea if you can afford the initial capital.

All that said, I still know of medics, lawyers and teachers who tell their kids never to take up their parents chosen professions for various other reasons.

I know someone who made it into a jet with a major airline at 36. The reason it took so long was they never made the grade 15 years ago and would have struggled with the 100k. They were never prime pilot material but eventually had enough equity in a flat to pursue being a pilot. Being a Pilot is really not that difficult and the level the bar has been set at in recent years means there is probably another 50k people in the UK alone that could take it up tomorrow if they have 100k backing. Being a pilot is no longer a career but more of an expensive lifestyle experience. Most would be financially better off working an office job that pays 35k.

I don't know.
I have also been flying purely for pleasure an average of 40-50 sectors per year, and after four months without a flight, I have taken to it again.
I had my first two flights last week (by the way, both were full), and until the end of this summer season I have twenty more already booked. I just hope they won't be cancelled by the airlines.

The biggest problem is one that at no time, the Pilot community has put pressure on governments to properly award our training , studying, responsibility and proficiency with an official recognition.

ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.

The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...

Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.

Empathy
 

What astounds me when I read some posts is the total lack of empathy towards a fellow human.

The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.

I am a military pilot but there is not a single cell in my body that doesn’t feel the pain of all those people I know in the airline industry (whatever their field) who are facing such life changing uncertainty.

To sneer at the people who are feeling such pain is unforgivable but especially when those feelings are clearly borne out of simple envy.

If you think those thoughts why must you feel the need to verbalise them?

I’ve said this many times but all my colleagues and acquaintances have my utmost sympathy and I hope the whole mess is sorted soon.

As a regular user of your services I’ll do my bit as soon as I am able by buying tickets again.

Exactly how it's done in Russia currently. And finally the quality of the pilots from such academies is so ****ty, most of them cannot explain what they see on jepp charts, and fly C172 in multicrew otherwise they cannot handle it.

It is utterly laughable to suggest that an ATPL is, or should be considered to be, akin to a post graduate qualification. It is a vocational, technical qualification; not an academic one. Nor is there any need for it to be academic.

I'm not sure many are saying that BV..and I'm sure (though you didn't say it) that you realise many of us not in the military are hearing some real horror stories from younger colleagues ATM ( for example potential loss of all household income if both breadwinners are in the same airline and perhaps still with training loans to pay back), and we are all doing our level best to encourage people and help get them through this...However we should remember that there are similar conversations going on in households where the main earner(s) are cabin crew, ground staff, engineers etc, many of whom have play their part in keeping us safe, so I struggle with the idea that started this thread that somehow we need to provide the pilot cohort with special protection.

My guess is part of the problem is that for many this is a brutal introduction into what goes on in the commercial aviation sector in a downturn ( and I accept this is a outlier, but many of us have seen the knives come out during smaller downturns before, GW1, 9/11...). Fundamentally employees are completely expendable, and yes, that includes those who were enticed into the business by the promises made by the ATOs and others who sold the dream on the basis of a never ending pilot shortage.

Pilots may not be unique but IMHO they have had it far worse in this pandemic than almost anyone else. Correction, than anyone else. Everyone goes on about healthcare workers but in the main they have not had to pay more than normal university costs, if that, for their qualifications, have jobs for life and during the pandemic have had free food and some have been waited upon by soon to be redundant CC who continued to smile through it all.

As a pilot I am undoubtedly biased, but I now have feet in many camps and as I look around it is hard to see another group, so indebted by training, facing such high levels of unemployment and with the possibility that they may never be employed in their profession again. I for one am not a great fan of the Chancellor who has spread taxpayers' money like manure rather than concentrate on those parts of the economy worst hit.

Quite right but others can occupy the Flight Deck on some aircraft. . But no quibble with "pilot's lives matter" but in what we are currently facing in the industry... thousands of other aviation lives also matter.
'

Let me just pop over to a thread clearly talking about the specifics of being cabin crew and start moaning about being a pilot right now. See how dumb that sounds? There is no monopoly on misery at the moment and hardship isn’t mutually exclusive. The point of the thread title was to allude to what the breaking point could be for pilots to finally say enough is enough. Offering to fly for free, chastising those for lack of a backup plan, laying off highly experienced commanders in favour of cheaper newbies and just being bluddy nasty on this thread clearly shows where the profession has gone. Enjoy your new lives with your virtual world and staycations for eternity. Good luck.

Bindair Dundat
I certainly agree about being social animals and I do hope that the outlook is somewhere in the middle. I expect, and plan for, the worst. This can lead to a pleasant surprise. Unfortunately, in my life of watching international affairs and politics (I am not in the financial or poltical worlds and never have been) the number of pleasant surprises have been few.

Yes, humans WILL want to socialise and travel again - but if the money is not there? When people have lost their jobs, as many flight and cabin crew are, as many airline office employees are, then the money is not around.

Time will tell. Do not forget that the new generations are not frightened of being on line. Also, they have got used to ordering online and sending back what they don't want.

I hope that those people you know do not get an unpleasant surprise. Over the millenia, human existance tends to change in 'landslides' and 'earthquakes' it is not that often, that change occurs slowly and gently. We have all got used to the easy progress since 1945. The airline world changed steadily and employment expanded beyond anyone's imagination. Steady expansion is not what history shows us.

As mentioned, the global economy was overheating before Covid19, there is a reason that gold has been increasing in value since long before the virus emerged.
As mentioned, with the airline world having to plan 5/10/15 years ahead - do not expect any fast changes.
As mentioned, the Max might get in the air in some parts of the world but it will never be the success that it was planned to be and this will limit jobs inside and outside of Boeing. Thus, costs may remain higher, unless a carrier can afford to buy/lease more efficient aircraft. So that is something of a Catch 22.

No, you are wrong. I have never wanted to be a pilot and have never applied for any such job. I have been a happy pax since I was nine. Just because I am interested in the airline world - does not mean that I want to be part of it.

Whatever scenario anyone of us imagines, there are three possible outcomes:

1. The reality will be better than we imagine
2. The reality will be worse than we imagine
3. The reality will be just as we imagine

I've read through a significant number of different scenarios. Anything ranging from things going back to normal by some time next year and traffic reaching and exceeding 2019 levels in no more than 2-3 years to things being so wildly screwed 3 years from now that no private airline will exist and the only flights out there will be operated by state-owned carriers to maintain essential connectivity and will cost an arm and a leg. My personal opinion, based on this? We shall wait and see. Whatever prophecy we make now, it may become completely invalid by next week.

Bindair Dundat

That is indeed what is wrong with the industry at this time. Solidarity has never happened, even within the various groups and def. not within those who are pilots.

PilotLZ

Yes agree, same as with married life with your partner in fact ..:E Who would have predicted, even believed 6 months ago that the USA with all their might , money and modern technology would be the hardest country in the world hit with the virus , and still unable to fix it as we speak .
In Europe July traffic is showing signs of rebound , but what is happening in the beaches, bars and restaurants at the moment might nullify this in a few weeks..
Crazy and frightening times...

My exact fear too. I get the impression that a large section of the European population have already classified the virus as no longer a threat and are rapidly dropping their guard. The result may well be catastrophic in the months to come.

Or just as likely it may well not be.

You can't endlessly play with people's fear to make them comply - and, unfortunately and unwisely, that's precisely what most governments did. At some point, people grew sick and tired of constantly being threatened and fell into denial as means of protecting themselves. Now that even the WHO already claim that complete containment of the virus is extremely unlikely anytime soon, people will have to learn to live with it. Sadly, there's a good chance that the lesson will be learned the hard way.

Well this PILOTS forum as you might have noticed does have other sub forums, for those of us involved in aviation. Or would you like us all to leave so that you can moan a bit more.

You mean like this, headline story on French lunchtime news today

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/fait...rty-1594573707

"Surprise" rave, 4000 plus, not a sign of any attempt at social distancing, very few masks;

Local authorities basically decided best approach was to get the sapeurs-pompiers on to the site to provide first aid, hand out masks and gel and also provide a fire watch.

I guess the attitude of those attending was that they are generally not in an at risk group, that might be fine for them but might bit of a problem for their extended family members.

Cut the guys some slack
 

Many of you are correct in pointing out that this forum is not exclusively for pilots. However, someone started this thread as a conduit for pilots to discuss their specific situation.

If cabin crew or engineers want to have a similar discussion you are welcome to start a thread of your own within this very same forum. Why feel the need to hijack and guilt-trip the pilots for wanting a safe-space to air their grievances with individuals who are in a similar situation to themselves and therefore able to empathise?

Where do you suggest the pilots should go if they are not allowed to have a thread to themselves?

I would suggest that the argument some have to brand the pilots as arrogant and self centered is a little specious if you have come into a thread discussing pilots (as a non pilot) and started to hurl abuse.

Would you go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and complain that nobody wants to hear about your gambling addiction?!

Seriously, if you can’t say anything nice...

I very much dislike any "xyz ... lives matter" sentiments. ALL lives matter.

About pilots and the situation that they are (mostly) in, yup, the same as just about everyone else in the aviation industry. And a lot of people in many other industries.

However, pilots are amongst the highest earners in society so they have had ample opportunity to save something for that 'rainy day'. (Yes, I know this is more like a heavy thunderstorm.)

Regarding the huge training loans, one has to question getting hugely into debt to 'invest' in an unstable career. Every ten years or so the industry takes a hammering (1st Gulf War, '9/11', financial crash) with job losses and airline failures. On top of that is the risk of medical problems. And so it goes on. That is a very, very high risk 'investment' (that I doubt many financial advisers would advise?), especially to get into debt for it. There are more 'piecemeal' and less financially draining ways of training, but none of the "want it now" lot are prepared to do something that involves more common sense and is less 'cool'.

As regards a pilot's licence (ATPL) equating to a bachelor degree, they are entirely different: one is training for a 'technical' qualification, the other is education for an academic qualification.

Yes, things are tough. Very, very tough. For many, many people. Not just pilots. And all their lives matter.

So... Don't try to blame others. Don't think that you deserve 'special' treatment. (Much of the public see you as already starting with these present problems in a more 'privileged' position.) This is a huge shock for everyone. Try to get through it not feeling that you are a victim of actions of others. You are a victim of the same thing that is hitting everyone else. And, I'll repeat it, all their lives matter.

Aviation helped to spread this problem. BUT aviation has probably done more than most industries to promote world peace over the past half-a-century or more, by promoting trade and travel: people are far less likely to want to go to war with people that they met on holiday. People need to get back to travelling, so speak to all your friends and neighbours and tell them how safe and good air travel is for them. That is a first step towards helping yourselves.

But please ditch this discriminatory "xyz ... lives matter".

Well said Noel..

but ATPL needs to transform into an Academic training once again, just like it was before bloody JAR/FCL!

Most young FO’s can’t even recognise clouds or interpret weather charts anymore, let alone understand the workings of a laser gyro or how Radio Navigation has developed into what it is now.

Strongly disagree.
Every college/university can be qualified as "technical qualification". If You go to Med school You are not qualified to become a lawyer or an economist.
The ATPL theory per se, if done properly, could be easily compared with a bachelor's degree. If You add all the tons of extra info that as a pilot You go through or will at a certain point of Your career (type ratings, training qualifications, constant reading updates, etc..) it becomes certainly not less than University stuff.
Source : myself and a bachelor's in Law (although never worked with it).

In large measure, I agree Bob, but would go further; by title/definition, this IS a PILOTS' forum.
It is interesting that others, not being commercial or transport, contribute and their opinions can be complementary, but I view them as "guests" and they should behave accordingly. Sadly, what once was a more intimate and specialist forum has become a sort of extension to Facebook; this is particularly evident in the snake-pits lurking in JB where many (most?) have no apparent involvement with aviation at any level. I get particularly incensed by references to pilots' remuneration shielding them from the worst of the viral and similar consequences. These references habitually fail to recognise that pilots also make the greatest personal investments in their profession.

I think I’d buy Bob and gypsy a beer .

Some of you have “spat the dummy”,comparing yourself with nurses, ludicrous!
Yes it’s awful, but you ‘literally’ pay your money and take your choices, the value of your investments may go down,as well as up.If you’d like some consolation from fellow professionals, show a little humility.
By the by, if you choose the right Masters your ATPL is the equivalent of a first degree, take a look at London City’s Aviation Masters courses.

​​​​​​Harsh as it sounds this is the crux of the matter (IMHO) and what makes the pilot situation unique and so painful. In the cold light of day, becoming a pilot in this era is a gamble (or an investment if you prefer). You pay your £100k+, and you're essentially fast-tracked into a highly respectable career with good earning potential. Compare that to doctors, lawyers, architects etc; 5yrs+ (and debt) and you're still only on the bottom rung of the profession. The downside is that aviation is a volatile industry and vulnerable to shocks. I've lost count of the number of threads I've seen pilots telling potential trainees that is a very cyclic industry, and to have a plan B in place before you sign up. Sadly, that's probably easy to overlook with talk of pilot shortages and ATOs selling the dream.

​​​You could write a dissertation for your ATPL degree on how we got to where we are, but it's no comfort to anyone currently staring down the barrel of a gun. I went to flight school in my thirties and I'm very lucky with my circumstances (for now), but my heart absolutely breaks for classmates and more recent graduates who are still in debt and don't know if there will be jobs for them on the other side.

Meester
 

That is a very kind offer but there is no need. Remember I have no dog in this fight. I am a military pilot but have a lot of friends who are hugely affected. I’m very lucky and Covid hasn’t affected me financially but why must we all race to the bottom?

Does it remind anyone of the Monty Python sketch? The one where they compete about who had a harder upbringing?

Of course pilots aren’t special but they are allowed to have a whinge just like everyone else.

Why does it need to transform into an academic qualification?

Not once in my career would an intimate technical knowledge of a laser gyro have added anything useful to the situation. I'm yet to meet an FO who can't interpret a weather chart or who couldn't "recognise clouds".

1 - because it adds extra value to the profession, i.e. You do not hold the same education level of a cab or truck driver (with all due respect). This becomes important when negotiating T&Cs.
2 - from a social point of view, You hold the same education as the above mentioned categories (and many more - again no disrespect intended) unless You have some other qualifications on the side. Now, I believe being a Professional Pilot involves a slighter higher degree of intellectual and cognitive skills - let alone the amount of study material - than a plumber, but in terms of education there is a very minor difference.
3 - As a bachelor's holder myself, I can 100% vouch to award an academic education to ATPLs, definitely with some extra conditions to be added and agreed upon.

guy_incognito

An ATPL at the current level should equip you to read the charts, if you go to degree level knowledge I'd suggest the candidate would need a deeper understanding of what lies beneath.

For example back in the day as an ATPL holder you simply needed to know that HF generally worked best on lower frequencies at night..the Physics graduate in the RHS :8 might actually have known why in some detail why that was that case but that knowledge definitely wasn't required...

Pretty much any subject can be brought up to a three year degree level course if given enough content and or depth (witness some courses at UK Uni's), but the emphasis and selling point for the ATPL seems (at least until recently) to get the qualification ASAP/PDQ..anything above minimum course content conflicts with that mission and would add to the cost.

Now if the ATOs can sell a 90 week or more academic plus flying package when aviation gets back to normal, then, just maybe, it will be worth discussing the merits of the ATPL being degree equivalent..until then.