Concur.........

If it goes across to NATS private section I will bid you goodbye. I am no longer part of that club. There is life outside thankfully!:cool:

Move it to "ATC Issues" as the NATS situation in the UK is going to affect every pilot and airline flying using their various services.

I think this thread should stay in the open forums, just in case NATS' treatment of staff heads in the BA direction.

concur.......

And I do too-stupid idea by somebody:D

Whilst I concur with everything that has been said concerning controller training, and recruitment. In the Middle East an experienced controller is given a maximum of 40 days to validate. This obviously means you can get the required numbers of staff operationally very quickly.

I don’t believe NATS can afford to go down the route of controller redundancies again. We must thank the “experts” whose predictions were so wrong a few years ago. I do think this is an opportunity for NATS to “streamline” the workforce though, and utilise ATCO skills and knowledge for non operational work as-well as controlling. Do we need a full time “ops” office, investigation office etc etc.

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Whow ! ..also in Dubai or Abu Dhabi Approach, or ACC for instance ? In my old unit ( MUAC) it took and it still take around a year to be fully qualified . It is roughly the same in the major German units so I would expect the same in LATCC , but wait to be contradicted.
in a small Tower with less than 100 Mvts a day, possibly yes. but for en-route ? You can probably train someone in one sector only in a short period of time but he/she will become useless most of the time in a large Centre.

Stopping recruitment and letting older staff go in time of crisis has been done before , even massive lay off . ( e.g. PATCO USA 1981) it always took years to rebuild to previous capacity levels as the vast majority do not come back . In USA it took 2 decades to rebuild the system to his previous capacity. 6 days on one day off and 50h weeks were the norm` for many years in most units in the US .. .in Belgium it was even 11 days on one day off to cater for staff shortages...

The future does not look too good for ATC in the next years... I feel sorry for you guys still active...

In the Middle East an experienced controller is given a maximum of 40 days to validate.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]

Not in DXB! You're in the SIM for three weeks come out and do Modules 2-5 in live traffic each level 50+ hours so minimum two cycles per module!

Leave it on R&N so we all see it. We should regard what happens to ATCO’s just as relevant as what happens to pilots in another airline. More relevant than 50 posts asking why Airbus didn’t see fit to make the A320 capable of withstanding sliding down a runway at 200 kts on it’s engine cowlings.

Wow, how times have changed then. 40 days in my day. Must admit the change is for the better.

That claim is a bit excessive.
At the moment BA staff would probably be over the moon to receive the same treatment as ATCOs.

Nimmer - a lot of the non ops positions you refer to are already covered by non operational ATCOs, due to loss of licence, medical etc..

mike current : In fact, most are done upstairs by ATCOs on a break or by support staff if you are at an airfield. In fact, investigations are done by support staff with occasional ATCO input.

Nimmer - a lot of the non ops positions you refer to are already covered by non operational ATCOs, due to loss of licence, medical etc..[/QUOTE]

yep and I imagine in this new tough world, there maybe a thought of do we need to pay ATCO Wages for an admin role??

I don’t disagree with you, however some of those responsible for restructuring or cost savings might.

overall for us ATSA’s uncomfortable reading, cant help thinking our position will be permanently lost

That's exactly why it's so important for a 100% union membership. If nothing else this crisis has surely highlighted just how quickly any of us can go from a seemingly comfortable and almost untouchable position to, potentially wondering where the next pay cheque is coming from. If non-op/support staff are considered to be fodder in any way then it only takes a loss of medical or competence to become one of them and hence fodder too. But for the grace of God comes to mind

Should be moved to 'ATC Issues' so everyone can still read it.
Judging by the fact the last posting in the NATS forum was by myself on 1 Jan 2020, I'm guessing it's not widely read anyway.

Hopefully it can be moved to the trash bin in near future.... So we all can forget this ever happened...

Maybe I'm cynical, but I would guess the figures are being done with a number of permutations calculated to work out how many people can "leave the business". No doubt just as the Statutory Redundancy or whatever has been renegotiated comes into force then thats when the major cull will begin. As has been said before on this thread, the easiest target is T&Cs, I'm familiar with the natsags that have been more than generous to employees over the years, you only have to look at how the airlines are targeting pilots to have an indication of how this will soon filter through the ATC world. Its been some time since I've been in NATS HQ but always remember the "no expense spared" atmosphere and general luxury that existed there. Hundreds and hundreds of staff employed doing things that I would never dream of and yet they wouldn't know the difference in an A330 and a DH8. Will this continue while they chop ATCOs? Who knows!

As for moving it to the trash bin - I really don't think thats an option, unfortunately.

I'm assuming he means the trash bin because he hoped the issue will quickly go away, not that it shouldn't be being discussed.

Unfortunately I can't see any way that the customers(Airlines Operators) are going to allow NATS to continue without also suffering in a similar way to the cuts they are being forced/choosing to make. The businesses are so closely intertwined that it would be seen to be almost immoral that one part of it is seen to get away with little or no pain. That said, it is imperative that NATS ensure the AOs are aware that just getting ATCOs off the shelf is not the same as requiring 100 new B738/A320 pilots and filling the vacancies quickly with little conversion required.