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-   -   Boeing to cut 10% of workforce amid staggering $641 million loss in first quarter (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632015-boeing-cut-10-workforce-amid-staggering-641-million-loss-first-quarter.html)

568 29th Apr 2020 14:27

Boeing to cut 10% of workforce amid staggering $641 million loss in first quarter
 
https://komonews.com/news/coronaviru...-first-quarter

Heavy Delta 29th Apr 2020 14:44

I'm surprised its only 10%, I suppose they are counting on getting support from peoples Taxes

DaveReidUK 29th Apr 2020 16:26

Does anyone seriously believe Boeing will be able to continue to employ the remaining 90%.

Spooky 2 29th Apr 2020 18:54

I suspect you are correct Dave. Probably just the first wave of layoffs with many more to come. They have to get this MAX debacle behind them so they can concentrate on moving forward, no matter what that looks like.

ATC Watcher 29th Apr 2020 19:36

And as a result the Boeing share price jumped 10% today ... :rolleyes: crazy world.

tdracer 29th Apr 2020 20:51


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10767429)
Does anyone seriously believe Boeing will be able to continue to employ the remaining 90%.

Local news is reporting that the cut will be much more than 10% in commercial aircraft - presumably there will be little impact on Defense and Space - the 10% is a company wide number. Commercial accounts for roughly half of total employment so do the math...
Also reporting they plan to be back up to ~30 737 MAX aircraft/month by the middle of next year, 777 and 787 production will be reduced, while 747 and 767 production will remain at the current rate.
No surprise about the 767 - all 767 production is either freighters or KC-46 (and cargo is the one part of aviation that's still going strong), but even though all 747 production is freighters, I've been expecting to see an announcement that the 747 production was going to end. The vendor that makes the 747 fuselage panels shut down that factory recently (after doing a 'build ahead' for the 747s currently ordered) - so if Boeing wants to keep the 747 in production they either need to make the investment to bring the fuselage in-house, or find someone else to manufacture those parts. Even though I suspect most of the tooling still exists, re-establishing that capability will mean a significant investment to keep the 747 line going.
It makes me think that Boeing has reason to believe they are going to get more orders for the 747-8F in the near future.

vikingivesterled 29th Apr 2020 22:48


Originally Posted by ATC Watcher (Post 10767572)
And as a result the Boeing share price jumped 10% today ... :rolleyes: crazy world.

A Reuters article of 28/4, states that Boeing instead of a new clean sheet look at the NMA, is now looking at a 757-Plus possibly involving new engines for a single aisle A321XLR competitor.
That could have given the Boeing share a lift.

tdracer 29th Apr 2020 23:18


Originally Posted by vikingivesterled (Post 10767725)
A Reuters article of 28/4, states that Boeing instead of a new clean sheet look at the NMA, is now looking at a 757-Plus possibly involving new engines for a single aisle A321XLR competitor.
That could have given the Boeing share a lift.

Someone is playing with words - the 757 is 15 years out of production, and the only tooling that still exists would be some of the 737 fuselage tooling. So a "757-Plus" would be a clean sheet design aside from perhaps having a common fuselage diameter with the original 757 (which, IMHO, would be a mistake - that long, narrow fuselage was the worse feature of the 757).

b1lanc 29th Apr 2020 23:29


Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10767748)
Someone is playing with words - the 757 is 15 years out of production, and the only tooling that still exists would be some of the 737 fuselage tooling. So a "757-Plus" would be a clean sheet design aside from perhaps having a common fuselage diameter with the original 757 (which, IMHO, would be a mistake - that long, narrow fuselage was the worse feature of the 757).

Is any airline buying any new aircraft from any manufacturer? Enough $ to support any new development?

turbidus 29th Apr 2020 23:44


Someone is playing with words - the 757 is 15 years out of production, and the only tooling that still exists would be some of the 737 fuselage tooling. So a "757-Plus" would be a clean sheet design aside from perhaps having a common fuselage diameter with the original 757 (which, IMHO, would be a mistake - that long, narrow fuselage was the worse feature of the 757).

Concur. As you state, the 57 tooling is loooong gone.
There was some talk of the revamped 767 freighter becoming pax, but that does not make sense.

My concern for Boeing is that aside from the 737MAX, which, has been struggling to leave the ground.....given market conditions, they have few aircraft to sell for the next 10 years.
787, 777X, 747...this market is dead for a long time.


Is any airline buying any new aircraft from any manufacturer?
Well, yes, the 220 series is selling well, and given current market conditions, may well sell even better..

Airbus has the 220-500 , which will be a killer in 2 years. and will be able to replace many 737 and 320 sales. but they have nothing else in program development that I am aware...

Boeing has nothing, no NMA, no NSA....they hoped that ERJ would develop a new NSA, but well...

b1lanc 29th Apr 2020 23:56


Originally Posted by turbidus (Post 10767766)

Well, yes, the 220 series is selling well, and given current market conditions, may well sell even better..

Selling does not equal delivery or payment. Which airlines are surviving this crisis so well that they continue to take delivery? Nothing much in the US. Maybe different overseas.

tdracer 30th Apr 2020 00:10

I don't know that the A220 series is going to much of cash cow for Airbus - it's very expensive to build, and most of the sales to date are for less than the recurring manufacturing costs. A big part of Airbus picking up the C-series was they thought they could get better economies of scale and get the manufacturing costs down enough that they could actually build them at a profit. But what I'm hearing is that hasn't panned out so far, and if there is a major reduction in build rate, those numbers just get worse. Remember, Airbus has very little skin in the A220 game - if they find they can't make money on it, they can simply walk away.
Smaller aircraft might look good short term, but this isn't going to last forever.

b1lanc 30th Apr 2020 00:20


Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10767786)
I don't know that the A220 series is going to much of cash cow for Airbus - it's very expensive to build, and most of the sales to date are for less than the recurring manufacturing costs. A big part of Airbus picking up the C-series was they thought they could get better economies of scale and get the manufacturing costs down enough that they could actually build them at a profit. But what I'm hearing is that hasn't panned out so far, and if there is a major reduction in build rate, those numbers just get worse. Remember, Airbus has very little skin in the A220 game - if they find they can't make money on it, they can simply walk away.
Smaller aircraft might look good short term, but this isn't going to last forever.

Perhaps. I could see older aircraft in storage (paid off) returning to service if fuel prices stay low (that's anyone guess). Roll back the clock about 15 years. Could happen.

Dave Therhino 30th Apr 2020 00:53

A friend told me Boeing Long Beach engineering is partially furloughing their employees, with everyone going to 75% hours.

tdracer 30th Apr 2020 02:05


Originally Posted by Dave Therhino (Post 10767809)
A friend told me Boeing Long Beach engineering is partially furloughing their employees, with everyone going to 75% hours.

Makes sense - the primary task of Long Beach engineering is product support for the commercial fleet. Not much product support needed when most of the fleet is parked...

Thaihawk 30th Apr 2020 04:10


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10767429)
Does anyone seriously believe Boeing will be able to continue to employ the remaining 90%.

The answer to that has to be a negative. This is but the first tranche to go. I would expect at least 30% to be gone or going by the end of the year. New commercial orders are going to be few and far between, and also far smaller than hitherto.

As to whether the 737 MAX ever re-enters service, and if it does will it be profitable, the outlook is far from rosy.

Boeing may be surviving on DoD contracts in a few years.

Ddraig Goch 30th Apr 2020 05:17

Boeing probed for quality-control lapses on 737 Max assembly line
 
Some more problems to add to the existing woes at Boeing. Article from Market Watch:

Boeing Co. BA, +5.86% faces criminal and civil scrutiny into years of widespread quality-control lapses on its 737 Max assembly line, according to people familiar with the details, potentially exposing the plane maker to greater legal liability than previously anticipated by industry and government officials.

link to article:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bo...=mw_latestnews

neville_nobody 30th Apr 2020 05:22


As to whether the 737 MAX ever re-enters service, and if it does will it be profitable, the outlook is far from rosy.
Probably a good time to scrap the MAX and make a proper new aircraft from scratch. By the time they finished there might be some demand for air travel again and the interim will give them breathing space.

procede 30th Apr 2020 05:51


Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10767829)
Makes sense - the primary task of Long Beach engineering is product support for the commercial fleet. Not much product support needed when most of the fleet is parked...

You would be surprised how much attention parked aircraft need, unless you accept you need to do a full A-check (or higher) before you can use them again. For one need to cover the engines and then uncover them when you start the engines every few days.

The 757 is dead. Compared to the 737 MAX9/10 it does not offer enough passenger or range advantage.

Revamping the 767 would make sense. High bypass engines, weight savings, aerodynamic improvements (sharklets) and integrate the 787/777 fly by wire system, so it is type rating compatible (and the larger diameter engines do not cause MAX like issues).

tdracer 30th Apr 2020 08:02


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 10767928)
Probably a good time to scrap the MAX and make a proper new aircraft from scratch. By the time they finished there might be some demand for air travel again and the interim will give them breathing space.

So, Boeing scraps ~900 built aircraft and writes off something on the order of $100 billion. Not to mention the billions they are going to lose over the next couple years until the market rebounds.
Where are they supposed to get another ten to twenty billion dollars to develop a "proper new aircraft from scratch"?


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