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-   -   Cargo Jet makes a 360 at 100’ (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/627747-cargo-jet-makes-360-100-a.html)

Brian Pern 9th Dec 2019 07:53

Could not agree more. There is a real lack of old fashioned skills these days. A few years ago, we lost our FMC in mid flight, the inexperienced FO wanted to ask for vectors, I simply switched to VOR and followed it as you do....ATC were a bit supprised as well. Sadly we are now all magenta line followers

beardy 9th Dec 2019 08:29


Originally Posted by Lazyload (Post 10635338)
Guys don’t you think this thread has to be the most entertaining we have read on PPRuNe for quite a while? The op’s intention was to chastise bad practice but instead we’ve got a real feel for African flying and seat of the pants raw skill. Its great to see everyone rallying up and posting clips and anecdotes. We’re all a bit jaded with pickle forks and maxes. Flying has to be more fun than punching in a route in the fms.

People who are attracted to flying are natural thrill seekers. The true skill in flying is to make even the most challenging situation routine and seemingly boring. And therein lies the problem.


CDRW 9th Dec 2019 08:51

Well put Layload.
The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa for ten years WITHOUT a wx radar or GPS have been carried through and still used to this day ( now over 17 yrs on the 777). One such skill - to the horror of some - is to look out the window!

Whenwe 9th Dec 2019 10:06


Guys don’t you think this thread has to be the most entertaining we have read on PPRuNe for quite a while?
Agree.
I actually feel at home here; I can remember checking my drift through the drift sight on the DC3.

blind pew 9th Dec 2019 10:57

Impressive SKA B727 you tube
 
First thing that struck me was the clean pressed shirts that they all were wearing. Some of our modern lot look as though theyve slept in theirs.
Approach he was working in the trim with his thumb..nice..proper flare rather than plonking it on and then doing his own reverse.
Did a short wet lease with Air Afrique...nothing like VNE by 3,000ft.

Old King Coal 9th Dec 2019 11:32

Someone above mentioned the use of a HUD... I would just point out that that piece of electronic crap bears a lot of responsibility for the crash of FZ981 (read the report) and, personally, I'm no fan of the HUD... on a CAVOK day a look out of the window coupled with some good old-fashioned stick & rudder skills is just as good (if not better) than anything the HUD can provide.... e,g, if you follow the HUD ever so accurately the blasted thing will have you landing at or beyond the end of the touchdown zone... whereas I want to land on the numbers and can do it every time (without recourse to any HUD nonsense) simply by looking out of the window coupled with +6,000 jet landings in the experience bag... but I guess the button pushing land-o-matic generation need all the electronic help they can get?!

bunk exceeder 9th Dec 2019 12:32

And the winner is.... The Frys 747SP. Miramar a few years ago. Watch the final pass.


At least for transport category. TAP is a very close second. If not tied for first.

601 9th Dec 2019 12:38


Some of our modern lot look as though theyve slept in theirs.
Will the QF Sunrise aircraft have laundry facilities on board?


The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa
Did you have to learn the fine skill of DME Homing in SA?

Callsign Kilo 9th Dec 2019 13:28

A bit of willy waving has seemingly crept into this thread now. The stick & rudder brigade are out to chastise the children of the magenta. The fact of the matter is, if you really want to fly an orbit at 100’ in a jet transport nowadays then you’re confined to clapped out freight luggers in salubrious places like Somalia. It’s undoubtably a fine display of hand flying in a day and age where the art appears lost. Anyway, I’m quite confident that I could pole about in my 70t+ crate however I don’t consider my ability to do so as a extension of my man hood. Pilots and their universal ability to talk about how wonderful they are appears alive and well in abundance

OldnGrounded 9th Dec 2019 13:39


Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo (Post 10635552)
A bit of willy waving has seemingly crept into this thread now.

Herod nailed it, in one brilliant, original word, in post #139.

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/627747-cargo-jet-makes-360-100-a.html#post10634393


Maninthebar 9th Dec 2019 14:04


Originally Posted by Old King Coal (Post 10635492)
Someone above mentioned the use of a HUD... I would just point out that that piece of electronic crap bears a lot of responsibility for the crash of FZ981 (read the report) and, personally, I'm no fan of the HUD... on a CAVOK day a look out of the window coupled with some good old-fashioned stick & rudder skills is just as good (if not better) than anything the HUD can provide..

The accident to FZ981 did not occur in CAVOK.

The poor souls flying FZ981 may not have made good use of the HUD, or may have been let down by its implementation but bringing that into this conversation seems inappropriate to me

The Range 9th Dec 2019 19:29

Was that AC/DC music you can hear on the video actually in the cockpit or it's just on the video?
I think it fits great there.

Auxtank 9th Dec 2019 19:54


Originally Posted by The Range (Post 10635810)
Was that AC/DC music you can hear on the video actually in the cockpit or it's just on the video?
I think it fits great there.

AC/DC is a great fit for the activities being carried out here but it's definitely added "in the edit" as supposed to on the flight deck.

midnight cruiser 9th Dec 2019 20:03


Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo (Post 10635552)
Pilots and their universal ability to talk about how wonderful they are appears alive and well in abundance

Folks who fall over themselves to try and demonstrate their superiority, endlessly pestering to hand fly departures in TMAs or to do raw data ILSs, or getting a hard-on about some guy doing a 360 without crashing into the terrain! - 'meh' - but when they're faced with one of the few actual tests of real stick and rudder skills in our job - a gusty crosswind landing, or even an accurate landing at the right spot at the right speed - and their flying usually gets real ragged, verging on alarming - that don't impress me so much! Landing skills do seem to be in a worrying negative tend.

Lilaccruiser 10th Dec 2019 00:08

Thanks everyone for generating such a hugely entertaining thread! Pprune is a secret fascination of mine not only for the deep technical knowledge and insight into fascinating topics on display, but also for the humour, ridiculousness and general humanity of the contributions. I once flew a Chipmunk for 10 minutes (or at least I thought I did) under very close control somewhere above Honington, but alas that is the total extent of my flying career. But like many of us self loading types, I admire you daredevil pilot types deeply. So, there was I, in a bar in Istanbul this weekend with my two grown up sons, neither of whom has any particular interest in your world, showing them the initial two videos from this thread and then explaining the way in which the thread, by sheer force of argument and deft marshalling of the facts by several contributors,, moved from horror and condemnation to delight and appreciation of the skills on display. And then moved into the realm of high comedy and satire with the two Baghdad posts. My lads completely got it just as I had,

Bravo pprunesters, you’ve created a work of art.

CDRW 10th Dec 2019 01:21


Originally Posted by midnight cruiser (Post 10635836)
Folks who fall over themselves to try and demonstrate their superiority, endlessly pestering to hand fly departures in TMAs or to do raw data ILSs, or getting a hard-on about some guy doing a 360 without crashing into the terrain! - 'meh' - but when they're faced with one of the few actual tests of real stick and rudder skills in our job - a gusty crosswind landing, or even an accurate landing at the right spot at the right speed - and their flying usually gets real ragged, verging on alarming - that don't impress me so much!

MC
So what does impress you much?
To get the landing in the right spot at the right speed in gusty crosswind conditions is easy as .....pie.
Auto land.!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....894828dabd.jpg

OldLurker 10th Dec 2019 03:03

Up tp a point ... autoland confused by ILS interference
Incident: Singapore B773 at Munich on Nov 3rd 2011, runway excursion

ATC Watcher 10th Dec 2019 06:39

We could open a separate thread on autolands, especially those done on CAVOK or CAT1 ( like the SIA above) where the ILS signal is not protected . I understand some airlines having ordered the Max were considering making autoland mandatory on that type regardless of Wx conditions to save on engines and tyres..Maybe now their confidence in Boeing electronics driving the flight controls might have eroded somewhat those plans.

Back to flying an airliner at 100ft, , since w are sharing old stories, I went to Narssasuaq a few times in the early 90s where the easiest route from Europe was Icelandair which used a good old 727-100 to do that , as if I remember correctly (waiting to be corrected) that type could take up to 35 Kts tail wind. which was a bonus since there is a glacier at the end of the fjord making mandatory landings and take off in opposite directions.
On clear Summer days one of the thrills of that flight was getting down to 500ft above the ice , looking for the glacier entrance and go down to 100-200 ft in the valley for about 20 NM, overfly the runway, teardrop over the fjord and land on the numbers. The pax loved it and complained when it could not be done . The only drawback was hearing the constant bells and other Woops woops in the cabin , since the cockpit door was wide open in those days .

rog747 10th Dec 2019 08:21

I really enjoyed this thread - Another impressive piece of flying was the (Lady Capt?) who landed her Thomson 757 in 40kts+ crosswinds in a huge storm last year at the aircraft carrier type strip at Bristol UK.

t-bag 10th Dec 2019 09:06


Dopsonj 10th Dec 2019 09:41

Continuing the Africa theme,

Customer of mine used to run/operate Africa One, here's a video his son took (you can hear the son in the video)

DC10 - Lowest pass starts around 1m25.


srjumbo747 10th Dec 2019 11:30


Originally Posted by Brian Pern (Post 10635365)
Could not agree more. There is a real lack of old fashioned skills these days. A few years ago, we lost our FMC in mid flight, the inexperienced FO wanted to ask for vectors, I simply switched to VOR and followed it as you do....ATC were a bit supprised as well. Sadly we are now all magenta line followers

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

Bend alot 10th Dec 2019 11:55


Originally Posted by srjumbo747 (Post 10636294)

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

When the lightly jumped the slot - ATC was already behind the 8 ball (common in stress areas of the World) so getting a vector will take some time.

You seem to think the FO was getting a waving show from captain and not part of the manoeuvre - it seems the FO called the lighty on runway and not a go-around call.

The guy was as cool as ice - it was not a stunt.

beardy 10th Dec 2019 12:08


Originally Posted by srjumbo747 (Post 10636294)

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

I agree with you all the way. But the spotters who seem to populate this thread don't want to hear the voice of common sense and experience.
I know it's an old adage, but worth repeating :
The exceptional pilot uses his exceptional judgement to avoid situations where he has to rely on his exceptional skills.
That does not mean not doing 'interesting' things, it means being prepared for eventualities, including getting your spacing right behind the aircraft ahead.

slfool 10th Dec 2019 13:09


Originally Posted by rog747 (Post 10636147)
I really enjoyed this thread - Another impressive piece of flying was the (Lady Capt?) who landed her Thomson 757 in 40kts+ crosswinds in a huge storm last year at the aircraft carrier type strip at Bristol UK.

TUI 757 flown by Captain Brenda Riepsaame Wassink


beardy 10th Dec 2019 13:26


Originally Posted by Dopsonj (Post 10636207)
Continuing the Africa theme,

Customer of mine used to run/operate Africa One, here's a video his son took (you can hear the son in the video)

DC10 - Lowest pass starts around 1m25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJz9xdWX6ZY

What a lot of birds about! 🐦

Retired DC9 driver 10th Dec 2019 17:56

CDRW wrote,

The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa for ten years WITHOUT a wx radar or GPS have been carried through and still used to this day
I started flying on floats, in Northern Canada. Later flew light twins, around the Game Parks in Kenya for 2 years, based in Mombasa, and Malindi. Few navaids, just tune in the VOK radio station in Nairobi. Landing on small strips in the Masai Mara, one often had to make a very low pass over a runway, to clear the migrating Wildebeest and Topis, then teardrop back to land quickly. Some DC-3 flying too, out of Nairobi Wilson. T-Bag, the Captain who checked me out on the DC-3 had flown the VC-10 with East African Airways...

The Range 10th Dec 2019 23:46


Originally Posted by srjumbo747 (Post 10636294)

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

What's so dangerous about dialing a VOR and following it? OMG!
And why do you have to bother the controller with that.
The FO should know how to navigate like that.

Check Airman 11th Dec 2019 00:07


Originally Posted by srjumbo747 (Post 10636294)

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

If navigating using conventional navigation is too heavy a load to bear, I’d suggest the FO shouldn’t have been in the cockpit.

I recently heard a story of a CA berating the FO for waiting until the flaps were up before calling for the AP. The captain cited the increased workload that he (the CA) endured. That captain wouldn’t do too well at my company!

A350HK 11th Dec 2019 00:55

Some real piloting skills shown right there!

srjumbo747 11th Dec 2019 04:06


Originally Posted by The Range (Post 10636790)
What's so dangerous about dialing a VOR and following it? OMG!
And why do you have to bother the controller with that.
The FO should know how to navigate like that.

For the non pilots, nowadays we don’t even have paper charts in the flight deck! SHOCK, HORROR!
To fly VOR to VOR would take quite a bit of effort. Finding frequencies, setting the aircraft up to fly VOR to VOR, seeing exactly where you are, adds to the cockpit workload. Why not pass the workload on to ATC.
Nowadays, we can even make an approach without NBD, VOR or ILS. Amazing! We can fly an RNAV approach. I won’t go into the finer details but if there’s a system degradation you ask for vectors immediately from ATC!
Unbelievable eh?
PS The guy in the video did an amazing job. Loved it!!

Capi_Cafre' 11th Dec 2019 07:01


Originally Posted by slfool (Post 10636373)
TUI 757 flown by Captain Brenda Riepsaame Wassink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn3MBNt7Rc

Does the 75 lack the rudder authority to align with the runway at its crosswind limit? That looked like a lot of side load on the main gear at touchdown.

midnight cruiser 11th Dec 2019 07:53


Originally Posted by Capi_Cafre' (Post 10636978)
Does the 75 lack the rudder authority to align with the runway at its crosswind limit? That looked like a lot of side load on the main gear at touchdown.

That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one - huge side loads on the gear and tends to lift the upwind wing, which can be the start of a lurching, messy roll out. Quite nice landing for the conditions, but IMHO, not particularly an example of superior stick and rudder skills a propos the subject.

beardy 11th Dec 2019 08:22


Originally Posted by midnight cruiser (Post 10637008)
That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one - huge side loads on the gear and tends to lift the upwind wing, which can be the start of a lurching, messy roll out. Quite nice landing for the conditions, but IMHO, not particularly an example of superior stick and rudder skills a propos the subject.

Once the drift disappears the aircraft is not on the centreline, it is lined up on the downwind part of the runway probably because the cockpit was lined up on the centreline which isn't the best idea in a crosswind.
Not kicking off the drift was standard F4 Phantom technique because it had such strong landing gear. Horses for courses.

medod 11th Dec 2019 08:25


Originally Posted by midnight cruiser (Post 10637008)
That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one

Runway was wet.

beardy 11th Dec 2019 08:42


Originally Posted by medod (Post 10637026)


Runway was wet.

So all you get is scrubbed tyres and just a bit less torque on the main legs and whiplash in the rear cabin. And being wet more of a risk of drifting to the, now closer, side of the runway.
This was a nicely controlled approach (although we don't know what the speed control was like) if a little off the centreline, followed by an arrival.

slowjet 11th Dec 2019 10:37

Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion probably did "free up mental capacity"and "lighten the load" by hand flying . Did a splendid & enviable job. That kind of displayed skill is no longer required in the modern airline world where you don't disconnect the autopilot (flight controls remain connected to the Flight Control Computers) and "throttles" are dummy sticks for moving in and out of detents. I still feel safer behind the ole boys who find it easier to knock everything out and skillfully, without any effort, handfly out of trouble.

The AvgasDinosaur 11th Dec 2019 11:18


Originally Posted by slowjet (Post 10637115)
Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................

‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

charlies angel 11th Dec 2019 18:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowjet https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................


‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

Looks like a grey haired South African bloke to me.

Capi_Cafre' 11th Dec 2019 19:44


Originally Posted by charlies angel (Post 10637430)
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowjet https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................


‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

Looks like a grey haired South African bloke to me.

That's because this thread can be added to the list of things that have drifted from the centerline....


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