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NAS has a few crew bases, so redistributing available crew with the mini schedule they plan to fly shouldn't be rocket science. Remember when they expanded long haul in 2012 crews were shuffled all over the place too.
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Originally Posted by calypso
(Post 10811156)
I think that is a common misconception by those not familiar with this industry. An airline is not Mcdonalds. Even if the labour market is awash with pilots you still need to recruit them, select them and train them. That takes plenty of time and money. All crew have to undergo an OCC course which takes a minimum of 5 sims and 2 weeks of different courses, after that you need to put them through line training. For all of that you will need an army of Examiners, Sim instructors, Line trainers and ground trainers. Even with a fully oiled training system running at full capacity hiring the thousands of pilots needed to run a 120 aircraft fleet will take over a year and cost many tens of millions. If your training department has been dismantled or much diminished you will need to first hire and train the trainers which will take considerably longer and cost even more.
Recruitment of pilots cannot be rushed for many logistical and regulatory reasons but putting that to the side taking the "wrong" sort will cost the company even more in the medium to long run with potentially decades of additional training, additional operational costs, damaged equipment, avoidable delays, avoidable cancelations , poor customer service, etc etc. Not to mention that if you mess up your hiring at macdonalds you end up with a burnt burger in an airline you can end up with a big hole in the ground. Given the numbers involved recruiting some bad apples is probably unavoidable so the question is how many and how bad, how much do I rush the recruitment so the risk is still manageable. Bad as that is recruiting a bad trainer can give you dozens of bad apples. How many trainers are you willing to just push through untested? So finding pilots won't be "hard" but finding the right pilots and getting to the point where they are available to fly the line will be a lengthy and costly process that will require a very significant logistical and operational effort. |
To get an aspiring pilot through selection and training into flying the line takes plenty of time and money. That is a fact. Not sure where the wishful thinking comes in. You can't crew a 120 aircraft airline overnight just because there are plenty of pilots about. That IS (an accountants) wishful thinking
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Finding pilots won't be hard, getting them through training and on line will be next to impossible.
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You guys are dreaming. There are type rated, recent, valid medical, Customer service experienced, high quality Captains, pouring out of the middle East right now. Heading back to Europe and the UK.
They are EASA qualified. They need a PC and 6 line training sectors. It would be true to say that trainers will be valued. |
Yeah, for a mom-and-pop shop, but not for any sizeable airline wtih detailed SOP and diverse operation. Most airlines have their way of doing things - from the moment you arrive to the crew room, through flying the aircraft to the moment you leave the crew room after duty. To suggest you could learn this in 3 days (PC + 2 days of line training), is... optimistic.
Where I work, you'd be looking at a good 2 months, assuming everything goes according to plan and there is plenty of training capacity available. |
No, they need an OCC, an LPC/OPC, and a minimum of 6 line training sectors.
Also, Norwegian need 787 and 737 rated and current pilots, and they are not "pouring out of the Middle East". |
Regardless of how experienced you are, and even type rated, if you come from the B777 (which is mainly the case as B787´s are not being laid off as much in QR) you still need a differences course of 4 SIM´s before your LST, then a full OCC course as you come to a different operator, and then your 6 sectors plus the final LCK. In the same fashion, any B737 captain joining short haul will still have to do a full OCC and 10 sectors.
In both cases, between interviewing, selection, rostering of their training and final LCK, you're looking at about 3 months on average. That is, if you have the availability on SIM slots in competition with the rest of the world starting their own airlines as well. Lastly, why would norwegian take an outside pilot when they have their own laid off, and in many cases still paying expenses for them, is probably the next question... 🤷🏻♂️ |
Originally Posted by Jonty
(Post 10811305)
No, they need an OCC, an LPC/OPC, and a minimum of 6 line training sectors.
Also, Norwegian need 787 and 737 rated and current pilots, and they are not "pouring out of the Middle East". I hope that you're right. But in my view the market value of Airline Pilots in the UK has collapsed. And to a lesser extent in Europe. |
Where is the money coming from for this expansion? They got a loan from the Norwegian state, which has to be paid back, that will be enough for flying 7 planes until the end of the year give or take. Hardly any income, bills to be paid if they start flying again, fuel, wages, leasing costs it won't be cheap. Been hovering around bankruptcy for years so you can think that there isn't exactly money in their bank account to use.
A global economy that is tanking so who is going to invest money into them to start flying again. Doubt any of these leasing companies will, lets be honest they went in because they had no choice so it was in their benefit. Now they will be facing a recapitalised SAS with even the Norwegian state thinking about going back in, it's not going to be easy for them at all. All this talk about pilots still being employed in OSM is surely academic isn't it. This is coming from someone in Scandanavia who lost their job. |
Absolutely delusional posting in here about how easy it is to replace pilots both in time and money. In Jet2 we haven't laid anyone off or announced any planned redundancies, this may not last forever obviously but there is a very real awareness that we are not as easy to replace as BA and some of you like to think. Our training department in a good year pumps out about 300 pilots and the current plan is that we can get everyone who is needed to relaunch the operation up and running in about a month, starting today.
That is with everyone having flown the aircraft within the last 6 months, airside passes still valid, still employed etc As for restarting an entire airline 6 months from now, replacing people and integrating new joiners if necessary, training the trainers who may not have flown in 12 months, then the crews, integrating new SOPs for Corona times, line training them, getting pax to trust you enough to actually book with Norweigen to have flights to line train people on.... Good luck with all that. |
The 7 planes flying have long gone to 8. And Norwegian is planning an announcement for reopening routes within Europe this week.
Besides you already have this on their site, w/prices: https://www.norwegian.com/uk/destina...lldestinations The willingness of lenders and lessors to recapitalise the company are unclear. They certainly took extra shares in the last 400 mill Nkr rights issue. Anyway it was 10 times oversubscribed so there should be potential for another and larger. |
Just getting the paperwork through the CAA could prove a nightmare!
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Originally Posted by vikingivesterled
(Post 10811369)
The 7 planes flying have long gone to 8. And Norwegian is planning an announcement for reopening routes within Europe this week.
Besides you already have this on their site, w/prices: https://www.norwegian.com/uk/destina...lldestinations The willingness of lenders and lessors to recapitalise the company are unclear. They certainly took extra shares in the last 400 mill Nkr rights issue. Anyway it was 10 times oversubscribed so there should be potential for another and larger. |
Finding an alternative airline that would take that many planes could take a while in the current market, and in the meantime the lessors are coming in at board level and selection committee level in Norwegian.
Most airlines, and lessors, have to many planes already and most have more on order and some ready for delivery from both Airbus and Boeing. Better then leave the planes with a known airline with hope of recovery where government loans at least will pay for parking, maintenance and some of the rent. |
I think the fact that Chris Browne has been recommended for appointment to the board is relevant. She brings experience from the travel side of things - not asset stripping.
https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/374418/chris-browne-nominated-for-norwegian-air-board More on next week’s apparent announcement. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/capta...val-to-profit/ |
Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
(Post 10811337)
Absolutely delusional posting in here about how easy it is to replace pilots both in time and money. In Jet2 we haven't laid anyone off or announced any planned redundancies, this may not last forever obviously but there is a very real awareness that we are not as easy to replace as BA and some of you like to think. Our training department in a good year pumps out about 300 pilots and the current plan is that we can get everyone who is needed to relaunch the operation up and running in about a month, starting today.
That is with everyone having flown the aircraft within the last 6 months, airside passes still valid, still employed etc As for restarting an entire airline 6 months from now, replacing people and integrating new joiners if necessary, training the trainers who may not have flown in 12 months, then the crews, integrating new SOPs for Corona times, line training them, getting pax to trust you enough to actually book with Norweigen to have flights to line train people on.... Good luck with all that. |
I think one of the big differences is the type of market. European leisure will probably rebound quite quickly. And WW said so himself. The long haul business market will probably be one of the last.
I think Jet2 will probably rebound quite quickly, BA long haul, probably not. Of course if we get a vaccine quite soon it could all come back very quickly. |
You may or may not be right but you and Willie Walsh have opposing views. We're going to see who's delusional. I imagine that it'll be something in the middle, with significantly lower Pilot salaries going forward. The £20,000 quoted on the IAG thread is probably to low but current salaries are obviously too high. |
In this case I have an opinion and not an agenda. I think that over the last 15 years far to many Pilots have been trained. I believe that the collapse in value of this profession became inevitable and that Coronavirus has just been the Catylist.
No Agenda though. Just an opinion. |
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