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-   -   JFK Thunderstorms (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/623895-jfk-thunderstorms.html)

Sailvi767 24th Jul 2019 23:41

JFK Thunderstorms
 
Let’s everyone be careful out there. I have witnessed some strange things in the last month. On the 22nd at JFK with level 5 thunderstorms in the area a KLM flight took off with a 16 knot tailwind on 22R with a huge cell 3 miles N and tower calling a wind shear alert. After a runway switch to 4 a Aero Mexico flight accepted a take off clearance with no available departure path and WS alerts and only cancelled take off when they got a onboard WS alert. 2 minutes later a Ethiopian inbound flight landed on 4R after declaring a fuel emergency. As they touched down we were getting onboard radar windshear alerts for the arrival corridor. The cell over JFK had tops reported at 56,000 feet at that time.

Dan_Brown 25th Jul 2019 00:47

Nothing wrong being reminded of the dangers of extreme WX, for example and the pssible consquences, should things not go according to plan.

We're all fallible, each and every one of us. I have fear of T/S's among other things in aviation. If we don't have fear therefore respect of possible consquences, we're in the wrong business. It's helped keep me alive up until now.

hunterboy 25th Jul 2019 09:40

I was in JFK a couple of months ago in the queue for a 22 R departure but facing up towards the ILS arrival path during particularly bad weather, causing >1 hour ground and air delays.
We were surprised when our PWS went off as we were in the queue stationary on the taxiway. Suffice to say, the next couple of arrivals on the approach went around.
One of the times we were glad to be on the ground with loads of excess fuel happy to wait it all out.

Sailvi767 25th Jul 2019 11:17

It was actually the first time I have seen PWS work on the ground and we got multiple alerts on the 22nd. Nice to watch it in action so to speak.

flyboyike 26th Jul 2019 11:17

I thought Les Abend retired?

Capt Fathom 26th Jul 2019 11:24


Originally Posted by Sailvi767 (Post 10527466)

Let’s everyone be careful out there.

Luckily everyone reads PPRuNe! :E

M.Mouse 26th Jul 2019 13:30


Originally Posted by Sailvi767 (Post 10527466)
Let’s everyone be careful out there.

Is the implication of that statement that normally people aren't careful?


Sailvi767 26th Jul 2019 19:41


Originally Posted by M.Mouse (Post 10528898)
Is the implication of that statement that normally people aren't careful?

I would say sometimes people are less than careful depending on circumstances. KLM knew that if they did not depart it was going to be a long night. Tower asked if any of the other aircraft in line were willing to depart as KLM rolled. The radio stayed silent so the majority were careful and yes we all had a long night.

Dan_Brown 26th Jul 2019 21:35

Certain airlines in a hurry, "gethomeitis"? Commercial pressure raising it's ugly head again?

Sad how history has a habit of repeating itself.

Hotel Tango 26th Jul 2019 23:10


On the 22nd at JFK with level 5 thunderstorms in the area a KLM flight took off with a 16 knot tailwind on 22R with a huge cell 3 miles N and tower calling a wind shear alert.
Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

aterpster 27th Jul 2019 13:42


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10529294)
Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

Are you agreeing that both of them did risky departures?


Hotel Tango 27th Jul 2019 14:20


Are you agreeing that both of them did risky departures?
It is not for me to judge either way. I wasn't in their cockpits looking at whatever data they were looking at. I just wanted to put the record straight that, as I felt was being implied, it wasn't just the KLM that opted to depart at that time. If I have a personal opinion, to me it would imply that (with CRM) there were at least 4 professional pilots who considered it safe enough to go and the Delta was not heading home!

Tomaski 27th Jul 2019 14:35


Originally Posted by hunterboy (Post 10527771)
We were surprised when our PWS went off as we were in the queue stationary on the taxiway.

I've had PWS go off because it was sensing the thrust of an aircraft in front of me (no weather in the area). Probably depends on the radar unit.

the_stranger 27th Jul 2019 15:20


Originally Posted by Dan_Brown (Post 10529245)
Certain airlines in a hurry, "gethomeitis"? Commercial pressure raising it's ugly head again?

Sad how history has a habit of repeating itself.

How sad you are jumping to conclusions without being there...

Sailvi767 28th Jul 2019 12:42


Originally Posted by Hotel Tango (Post 10529294)
Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

The above is correct however Delta had a headwind at the time of departure with no tower wind shear alerts. Both aircraft had a clear departure corridor after getting airborne. Winds and conditions were changing by the minute.

alioth 28th Jul 2019 23:13

Been a bad year for thunderstorms

Sailvi767 29th Jul 2019 16:58

We have not had a major windshear accident in a long time. It breeds complacency. This cell had the ability to turn that 16 knot tailwind into 50 knots in the blink of a eye. It’s good to be lucky but luck eventually runs out.

Hotel Tango 29th Jul 2019 17:45


This cell had the ability to turn that 16 knot tailwind into 50 knots in the blink of a eye.
Just as the minimum headwind component for the Delta when given take-off clearance could have similarly turned into a 16 knot tailwind as it accelerated down the runway and a 50 knot tailwind as it rotated.


It’s good to be lucky but luck eventually runs out.
Well yes, but were they "lucky"? That's quite a damning statement aimed at four fellow professionals.

You've had your say and made your point. It may be valid and it may not. You were not sitting in either of those cockpits.

The Range 29th Jul 2019 18:58

These guys weren't that lucky.
​​​​​​Accident: Pan American Airways 759

Hotel Tango 29th Jul 2019 19:22

That was 37 years ago on July 9th, 1982. Much has evolved since then!


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