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-   -   Korean Air defends pilot who tried to drink alcohol during flight (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/623374-korean-air-defends-pilot-who-tried-drink-alcohol-during-flight.html)

Lord Farringdon 12th Jul 2019 02:21

I seem recall many years ago, rumours of French crews on UTA (and possibly other French airlines) that would imbibe at lunch on the flight deck with a small glass of wine. This was a very French thing to do and by all accounts the amount of wine was of so small to be inconsequential but the tres Francois custom of having wine with food was upheld. I cannot verify this of course but it seemed credible at the time and we are talking the 80's here.

compressor stall 12th Jul 2019 02:30

Jack, I wouldn't be so sure....

Admittedly not Air France/SwissAir, but 15 odd years ago at a stopover at far flung French location we declined the offer of wine with our lunch as we were flying. The subsequent incredulous look we received only made sense when we realised that the helicopter pilot flying us back to our aircraft was at our table having a glass of wine.

Longtimer 12th Jul 2019 02:50


Originally Posted by Jack D (Post 10516457)


This didn’t happen, no wine or any other alcohol was
ever served with cockpit food . Off duty aircrew in the
restaurant perhaps ?

So you were there? I was.

fox niner 12th Jul 2019 07:32

Drinking wine in southern europe with every meal, and drinking beer in northern europe with every meal, has been embedded in culture for thousands of years.
So much so that even 4 year old kids were given wine or beer with each meal during the last thousands of years.
Reason?
Water was almost always contaminated with pathogens. Water has been safe to drink only since the 1960s.

The side-effect of this: European people can “handle” alcohol somewhat better than Asian people, due to evolution.

Nowadays there is no reason to give your kids any alcohol. Or for yourself to drink alcohol while working. But there is a reason why Columbus stocked hectolitres of Port wine on board when he set sail to discover America.

Jim_A 12th Jul 2019 12:50

Asian societies seem to be a lot more concerned with protocol, lines of authority, face saving, etc, so I'm not terribly surprised.

bill fly 12th Jul 2019 17:55


Originally Posted by Longtimer (Post 10516468)
So you were there? I was.

So Longtimer, apart from being in the staff restaurant and standing in the front galley regularly as wine was brought to the cockpit, what are your other connections to Swissair?

Jack D 12th Jul 2019 22:35


Originally Posted by Longtimer (Post 10516468)
So you were there? I was.

Flew 26 years for SR short haul, long haul et al .
never saw this, so yes you could say I was there !

whereas you were in a staff restaurant, and may have, as a passenger, seen a standard “ tray” with a small bottle of wine attached, passed to the flight deck .. I assure you this would never have been consumed by the pilots .. at least as far as my 26 yrs experience
mid concerned ..

Dangerous to jump to conclusions old boy !

T21 12th Jul 2019 23:26

Jack D
Then why was it served if not for consumption with the meal. I did some wet lease flying for Air France about 18 years ago and had to tell our cabin crew to take away the small bottle of wine which was perched on the tray in full view of the passengers before they walked the length of the cabin to bring us our standard flight deck crew meals.

Jack D 12th Jul 2019 23:40

It was there but never consumed and indeed quite rare for the cockpit to receive a standard pax tray, on most flights first class catering was offered, no plastic trays or plonk. No one felt the need to virtue signal by having it taken away, why would you ? why were you so concerned about what others may think ? you didn’t drink it so that was that

I suppose people were were less interested in what others may do or say and were overall far less judgemental, everyone was pretty grown up about such things .. pre social media days .

Longtimer 12th Jul 2019 23:41


Originally Posted by bill fly (Post 10517063)


So Longtimer, apart from being in the staff restaurant and standing in the front galley regularly as wine was brought to the cockpit, what are your other connections to Swissair?


Business Class passenger (full fare) and a working member of various IATA working groups. And what was yours in the 70s. Or perhaps you were still in school? You will note that I said I saw meal trays bearing wine going into the cockpit but since I was not in the cockpit perhaps they were not consumed and instead saved. The ones in the staff cafeteria were def. consumed.

WingSlinger 13th Jul 2019 00:12


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 10516466)
Jack, I wouldn't be so sure....

Admittedly not Air France/SwissAir, but 15 odd years ago at a stopover at far flung French location we declined the offer of wine with our lunch as we were flying. The subsequent incredulous look we received only made sense when we realised that the helicopter pilot flying us back to our aircraft was at our table having a glass of wine.

In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

T21 13th Jul 2019 00:17

Jack D
The meals I was speaking about were specific crew meals. We had no passenger meals on board as we were short haul for them. My main concern was always that any passengers on board , especially nervous ones, would be very concerned at the thought of pilots drinking alcohol whilst flying. How would they know that it was drunk later after work? Which is exactly what used to happen to my bottle!

WingNut60 13th Jul 2019 00:18

I was always impressed by the breakfast buffet at the Radisson in Moscow - a tray full of vodka shots to go with your Rice Krispies.

Jack D 13th Jul 2019 00:28


Originally Posted by T21 (Post 10517328)
Jack D
The meals I was speaking about were specific crew meals. We had no passenger meals on board as we were short haul for them. My main concern was always that any passengers on board , especially nervous ones, would be very concerned at the thought of pilots drinking alcohol whilst flying. How would they know that it was drunk later after work? Which is exactly what used to happen to my bottle!

I see your point .. glad you kept it for later ! All I can say is that in SR alcohol consumption in the cockpit on duty was forbidden and this rule was adhered to by everyone I ever flew with ... crew meal trays had no wine bottles, pax trays had them and were sometimes offered if they were more appetizing than the crew meals but the vino was ignored ...

MENELAUS 13th Jul 2019 01:54


Originally Posted by WingSlinger (Post 10517324)


In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

That phrase has been used so often, although I’ve never actually heard a Frenchman ( or woman ) say it, that it belongs in the hackneyed phrase almanac. That said, at the French base at Cazaux, where their ‘force de frappe’ guys were based, wine was available on tap at lunchtime, and regularly imbibed by the guys on QRA, in their goon suits. As it was at L’Orient and Landivisau. The mess at Nîmes-Garons has its own domaine and this was served at lunch and dinner. And bloody good it was to. So it was part of the culture then, mid 80’s or so. Suspect long gone.

bill fly 13th Jul 2019 05:56


Originally Posted by Longtimer (Post 10517307)
Business Class passenger (full fare) and a working member of various IATA working groups. And what was yours in the 70s. Or perhaps you were still in school? You will note that I said I saw meal trays bearing wine going into the cockpit but since I was not in the cockpit perhaps they were not consumed and instead saved. The ones in the staff cafeteria were def. consumed.

Jumping to conclusions isn’t a good idea on this forum... In 72 I joined SR. The rules were that the only place one could drink in uniform - after flight nota bene - was in the Staff restaurant or in the Crew House - SR‘s own crew hotel in GVA.

I never saw alcohol consumed either before flight or in a cockpit, short or long haul. There was an eight hour bottle to throttle rule, which might be a bit lenient these days - was the same as in the RAF.

Went to some IATA meetings in GVA by the way to observe freight prices being fixed. Could it have been with you?


compressor stall 13th Jul 2019 07:40


Originally Posted by Globocnik (Post 10517375)

In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

I was talking to the big cheese (grande fromaggio?) of an Italian government supply vessel about 10 years ago about the fact that our Aussie government equivalent had banned alcohol. His reply was, "Unfortunately its the modern way, so have we, the guys will just have to be happy with beer and wine".

pilotmike 13th Jul 2019 07:49

Perhaps someone should start a thread about a specific Korean Air incident and the management handling of it.

Maybe Bill, Jack, Long and T should get a room, where they can mull over the good old days of yore at Swiss / AF over a bottle of vino!

bill fly 13th Jul 2019 07:59


Originally Posted by pilotmike (Post 10517509)
Perhaps someone should start a thread about a specific Korean Air incident and the management handling of it.

Maybe Bill, Jack, Long and T should get a room, where they can mull over the good old days of yore at Swiss / AF over a bottle of vino!

Good idea Mike!
But when something like that happens, drawing comparisons is to be expected.
The Air France story was a widely told myth and on that score I have no knowledge.
Was however in Seoul once for a sim ride. Check pilots smoking in the box despite request to stop etc.
There was an evident attitude that might was right throughout my visit there.
Could well explain the peanut rage and this case too.


413X3 13th Jul 2019 09:49


Originally Posted by Longtimer (Post 10516444)
I can remember sitting in the staff restaurant in GVA (Swissair) in the 70s and observing aircrew in uniform along with other uniformed staff (agents, AMEs etc) enjoying their split of wine with lunch. When flying on Swissair it was not unusual to see a meal tray, containing a split of wine, being served to those in the cockpit; No accidents accredited to this. Perhaps we are now in the grasp of 'Political correctness" vs reality. :rolleyes:

Now we are blaming political correctness for "checks notes" not letting captains drink alcohol on flights or in public at airports before flights. You people are amazing.


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