India First week of monsoon
In the first week of monsoon there have been six incidents in last 24hrs by Airlines in India. Five were on B737-800 and one was on Q400. SpiceJet had three runway excursions on B737-800 and one on Q400 while AI Express on B737-800 had one excursion and one tail strike.
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Can anyone one confirm that the runway excursion at Mumbai was due to a wheels up landing, as initial reports suggest so |
Does landing on a contaminated runway ring a bell with anyone?
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All those fuel/oil/hydraulic fluid/rubber deposits accumulated on the runway during the dry season, washed up and mixed into a greasy mess by torrential rains. A bit like behind the line at a traffic light where cars stop in exactly the same spot and drip fluids whilst waiting for the light to change.
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Greasy - easy: Use ABS max
Originally Posted by Sub Orbital
(Post 10508157)
Does landing on a contaminated runway ring a bell with anyone?
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Caution with reversers
Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10508370)
I remember landing in VABB (BOM) - always used ABS MED or if runway damp, wet, VCSH or RESH, ABS MAX; and, full reverse thrust each time.
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Oh, you mean skidding and diverging from center-line? I understand the use (or not) of thrust reversers in such a situation.
I was referring to braking action as a result of the runway surface at VABB |
Maybe the indians should Google «grooved runway» and start doing something about their runways?
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Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10508370)
I remember landing in VABB (BOM) - always used ABS MED or if runway damp, wet, VCSH or RESH, ABS MAX; and, full reverse thrust each time.
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Used MAX Autobrake reguarly into VABB on the 777 during Monsoon Season, why?..It looks better on the accident report (crew used all available means of retardation)..!!
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Originally Posted by zlin77
(Post 10508557)
Used MAX Autobrake reguarly into VABB on the 777 during Monsoon Season, why?..It looks better on the accident report (crew used all available means of retardation)..!!
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Seriously MAX
Originally Posted by The Old Swedish
(Post 10508529)
Autobrake MAX. Seriously?
From memory, Boeing has ABS 1 thru 5; MD11 has ABS OFF, MIN, MED or MAX. And as zlin77 stated (perhaps cynically) better to have maximum braking capability being used, than not. |
Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10508370)
I remember landing in VABB (BOM) - always used ABS MED or if runway damp, wet, VCSH or RESH, ABS MAX; and, full reverse thrust each time.
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Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10508570)
You are quite correct - Airbus permits only auto brake MIN, MED or manual (and selection of MAX for TKOF only).
From memory, Boeing has ABS 1 thru 5; MD11 has ABS OFF, MIN, MED or MAX. And as zlin77 stated (perhaps cynically) better to have maximum braking capability being used, than not. |
Originally Posted by Weapons Grade
(Post 10508570)
You are quite correct - Airbus permits only auto brake MIN, MED or manual (and selection of MAX for TKOF only).
From memory, Boeing has ABS 1 thru 5; MD11 has ABS OFF, MIN, MED or MAX. And as zlin77 stated (perhaps cynically) better to have maximum braking capability being used, than not. |
Back to the thread... And following on from ManaAdaSystem's comment...
I'm personally very surprised that the native airlines haven't all got together to go and scream at each and every Airport Director (or even the AAI) for the runways to be grooved... |
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"On Jul 3rd 2019 India's Civil Aviation Minister stated that due to Monsoon such occurrences occasionally happen as result of excessive rain, however, all is under control ..."
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Not so much something to with Training as the selection of suitable & capable candidates in the first place.
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I landed in BOM a couple of days ago and the runway seemed to be a bit grippier than I remember - has it been resurfaced? Anyway, I can confirm there was a lot of water about, three aircraft went around due w/s.
...it won't help much to select Autobrake max with poor braking action (provided braking conditions are constant over the whole runway) Autobrakes generally go for a fixed deceleration rate on anything but MAX, where they function like the ABS on a car with your foot hard on the brake: they extract the maximum stopping performance available at that instant. Consider a runway where the braking action of 50% of the surface (not necessarily in one bit) is worse than reported and 50% is better - using MAX will get more stopping in the good bits and the same in the bad bits, so a net win over an AB setting that technically should give the same result but may surprise you on the day. Downsides of using MAX AB? Err, maybe a little bit more brake wear? Downsides of going off the end... |
Originally Posted by FullWings
(Post 10509606)
I landed in BOM a couple of days ago and the runway seemed to be a bit grippier than I remember - has it been resurfaced? Anyway, I can confirm there was a lot of water about, three aircraft went around due w/s.
I think the proviso rarely applies, as from my experience, the worse the braking action, the more variability there is. Water/slush/snow/ice is rarely evenly distributed and you’ve likely got areas of rubber deposits around the TDZ at either end. Autobrakes generally go for a fixed deceleration rate on anything but MAX, where they function like the ABS on a car with your foot hard on the brake: they extract the maximum stopping performance available at that instant. Consider a runway where the braking action of 50% of the surface (not necessarily in one bit) is worse than reported and 50% is better - using MAX will get more stopping in the good bits and the same in the bad bits, so a net win over an AB setting that technically should give the same result but may surprise you on the day. Downsides of using MAX AB? Err, maybe a little bit more brake wear? Downsides of going off the end... |
Really guys, you don’t know that different aircraft have different systems that work in different ways? The NG has AB 1-2-3-Max for landing, RTO for takeoff. Max can be used whenever it’s needed. Did that recently on a 1600 m runway and 63 T for landing. It uses a fixed retardation so more reverse give less brakes. RTO is the full monty. Landing runway 14 in BOM on a wet runway and 60+ tons LW you’ll be stupid not to use max. |
It was fitted to our DC 10 as a mod. Crews were informed by a memo from the fleet TP, with recommendation to use light or medium but not full, until experience was gained and a feedback form had to be completed each time. Next scene - pre landing in HKG dry RW and quite light - FE says Autobrake? Capt on check says Oh - er Better use light - Check Pilot says Try Full - FE says I have to fill a form and it says Reason for use - Check Pilot says Put Inquisitiveness. The landing - Touch down followed by the most brutal retardation I have ever experienced before or since - talk about being thrown against the harness - IAS falls like a stone - Check Pilot shouts Disconnect - Captain on check shouts How? I (probably the only one who had read the memo) say, Brakes. Captain brakes and the ship feels as though released from a bow. We are now at about 30 knots and have to use Fwd thrust to reach the first exit... Taxy in with red faces, left side anyway and hot brakes - Capt makes an announcement about a new bit of kit - not working properly, sorry etc. All good useful experience for the first officer. |
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