Women pilots told ‘terminate your pregnancy or employment’
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the article seems to suggest it is self employed contractors who are affected rather than traditional employees so I am not sure how this fits into employment law. Its interesting that the article states “Capt Evan Cullen told an Oireachtas Committee investigation into bogus self-employment that about half the pilots working in Irish-registered airlines were hired as self-employed contractors. He said all Irish-registered airlines were involved to some extent in employing workers as self-employed contractors with many global airlines, who were “not household names”, setting up companies and registering here to take advantage of Irish labour law. For the pilots there were implications for wages, sick pay, maternity cover and pensions, as well as collective bargaining and other rights.” Maybe the Irish need to start clamping down on this type of behaviour, especially the bogus self employment part. |
Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly
(Post 10502484)
Maybe the Irish need to start clamping down on this type of behaviour, especially the bogus self employment part. |
The point I was trying to make was they should be clamping down on the fact “global airlines, who were not household names, setting up companies here and registering here to take advantage of Irish labour law” Rather than the fact they are self employed, they are doing it because presumably the labour laws are more lax than elsewhere and the headline seems to confirm it. |
Uber tried it... Nevertheless airlines I know have kept these ladies on and benefitted as a result. |
What's this got to do with self-employed contractors? That's another issue altogether. Surely any problem of pregnant pilots who contnue to fly is a matter for that imfamously blind, deaf, insensible rubber-toothed poodle known as the IAA rather than employment law?
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Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly
(Post 10502484)
the article seems to suggest it is self employed contractors who are affected rather than traditional employees so I am not sure how this fits into employment law. |
I’d say that this would be a matter of anti-discrimination legislation rather than employment law as only a female worker can be affected. |
Originally Posted by Toolonginthisjob
(Post 10502875)
If these are self employed pilots. Ie, they employ themselves. Then presumably they’ll have to take themselves to court? |
Discrimination law does not apply to the self-employed. Nor does any other employment law. They can have their contracts terminated whenever the client wishes, given whatever notice period is specified in the contract. Which can be no notice, if that is what the contract says.
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Interesting. Back in the bad old days of absolute Consultant rule of appointments in the 60's a young specialist trainee (married, respectable), accidentally became pregnant,
When she told her Consultant, he said, "Well, my dear, you have two choices". When she asked what these were, he replied curtly, "Resign or have a termination". She had a termination. Brutal. Bad old days. One of my trainees had TWO children during her training which added a year to her normal five. She took two months off for each child. Pretty tough on her colleagues who had to cover, but hey... Mac |
The Irish government is taking a dim view of people being considered self employed, when they work solely for one employer. Apart from the disadvantages in terms of employment law from the viewpoint of the employee, the state looses out on tax revenue which might otherwise have been collected. This may be why that statement is being made at this time.
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Originally Posted by marchino61
(Post 10503071)
Discrimination law does not apply to the self-employed. Nor does any other employment law. 15 years or so ago a West Indian self employed plumber won a case against a housing management services company operating in Central London after he discovered that he wasn’t being given work in certain wealthy areas because the people who lived there ‘preferred to see a white face’ if a tradesman needed to come into their home. These things are notoriously difficult to prove but this guy was lucky enough to be contacted by someone who worked for the management company and told him what was going on. The case was brought under the Equalities Act (or probably the Race Relations Act as it was then) and it is believed that the guy received ‘substantial compensation’. |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 10502405)
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife
(Post 10503104)
When she asked what these were, he replied curtly, "Resign or have a termination". She had a termination. Brutal. Bad old days. Only last year a female musician was told to have a termination by her record label or they would drop her as they didn’t want to promote her new album if she was pregnant. |
Originally Posted by marchino61
(Post 10503071)
Discrimination law does not apply to the self-employed. Nor does any other employment law. They can have their contracts terminated whenever the client wishes, given whatever notice period is specified in the contract. Which can be no notice, if that is what the contract says.
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If the contract does not suit your circumstances, don't take it.....
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Originally Posted by Just a Grunt
(Post 10503781)
Um...no. Maybe in Timbuktu... BTW, I worked on a similar basis to Ryanair pilots for 15 years, so I know how easy it is to have your contract terminated by the client. And as you are trading as a limited company, you personally have no comebacks. That is why it is different from the case of the plumber. |
Claim made but seems he not able to provide real proof. For the sake of our own credibility, I seriously hope the union is not making stories up out of thin air. |
Isn´t it the case that the moment pregnancy is discovered, the lady in question is deemed medically unfit to fly ? I was told so by a german lady who had a baby and was deemed unfit by the AME. She had no issues, I understood that it is more or less to protect the child.
IF this is the case also in Ireland, the self employed will have a disadvantage. |
It's right to medically protect the embryo from radiation and such in the earliest phases. However women pilots must be guaranteed to not lose their jobs in case of pregancy. I thought they were but reality seems to be different.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10503893)
It's right to medically protect the embryo from radiation and such in the earliest phases. However women pilots must be guaranteed to not lose their jobs in case of pregancy. I thought they were but reality seems to be different.
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I understand that you don't get full flight pay when working on ground jobs only for some time but getting fired for not terminating your pregnancy is beyound brutal. There must be another way to treat people fair.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10504067)
I understand that you don't get full flight pay when working on ground jobs only for some time but getting fired for not terminating your pregnancy is beyound brutal. There must be another way to treat people fair.
Many contractors are on an as required basis, only called in for a specific task. So not like a regular job that one turns up to every day. And if one is "unavailable" for any reason, well the phone will probably go quiet. Given the "pilot shortage" (cough) it is surprising there are any contract pilots at all. As operators surely would want to employ in order to keep hold of their crews, given the "pilot shortage" (cough). |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10504067)
I understand that you don't get full flight pay when working on ground jobs only for some time but getting fired for not terminating your pregnancy is beyound brutal. There must be another way to treat people fair.
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Right, but 'self-employed' people who are constrained by contract to working for a single 'client' [employer] at that employer's effective beck & call aren't actually contractors at all, they are disguised employees. Having a pool of contractors you use on an ad-hoc basis for surge capacity & to cover full time staff out sick etc is one one thing, but of course unless they are also allowed to go and 'do a bit' for the competition when not required by you, that's a zero hours contract. Which again is a source of concern to people trying to enforce employment law.
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You make it sound like they were conscripted. I imagine they entered their association / contract with eyes open. We keep hearing about a "pilot" shortage so they must have had reasonable alternates.
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Don't blame the Irish Government only. It was the contract pilots own choice to take the contract. They knew what they were doing, or they should have.
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As others have noted, it depends on what the contract says. When I was working, we often had a significant number of 'contract' engineers. Boeing liked contract engineers because they were easy to hire or let go, and so they could respond to variations in workload without adversely affecting the core workforce. Some of the really good contract engineers were made offers and became direct employees - many others we were just as happy to seen gone when they left.
One of the terms of the contracts was that either side could terminate, at any time and without cause, with 2 weeks notice (no notice required if the termination was 'for cause' - e.g. theft). About 20 years ago, our division chief came out of meeting where he'd been told he needed to cut costs and announced all contract employees in the division were given their 2 week notice, effective immediately (at the time, roughly 10% of the engineers in the division were contract). Given the circumstances, coordination and transfer of tasks from the contract engineers was all but none existent - in fact many simply stopped coming in. Although the reaction of direct employees was near panic, it turned out that by most metrics (e.g. on time completion of tasks) things actually got better after the contractors were let go. If the pilots contracts are similar with provisions that either party can terminate without cause - and a pregnant pilot can't fly - then it's perfectly reasonable for the employer to say 'if you can't fly, you're terminated'. Sure, it sounds bad, but if you're under contract to do a job, and you're no longer able to perform that job, then most people are going to be be let go. |
Originally Posted by DrCuffe
(Post 10503151)
The Irish government is taking a dim view of people being considered self employed, when they work solely for one employer. Apart from the disadvantages in terms of employment law from the viewpoint of the employee, the state looses out on tax revenue which might otherwise have been collected. This may be why that statement is being made at this time.
In the UK get your MP involved to bring about change. Get BALPA on board to lobby as well. |
Unfortunately the headline is quite far from reality in some cases. I have met some of these pilots who had been offered permanent employment within some airlines but refused as there is quite a significant gain in income if operating as a contractor, less tax etc. I also know of pilots who were full time employees and moved to self employed contracts.
Unfortunately in most contract jobs there are clauses saying that if you can no longer offer flying services then the contract can/will be terminated, for those female pilots this would be the case during pregnancy due to temporary loss of medical. This has the potential to ruin contracting for those of us who want it. The freedoms in contracting are beneficial to some of us. Unfortunately again a group of people might ruin this for the pilots who genuinely want and need contract jobs. I have no sympathy for those pilots who choose to work as contractors and then complain about lack of rights. |
Originally Posted by flyingmed
(Post 10506204)
Unfortunately the headline is quite far from reality in some cases. I have met some of these pilots who had been offered permanent employment within some airlines but refused as there is quite a significant gain in income if operating as a contractor, less tax etc. I also know of pilots who were full time employees and moved to self employed contracts.
Unfortunately in most contract jobs there are clauses saying that if you can no longer offer flying services then the contract can/will be terminated, for those female pilots this would be the case during pregnancy due to temporary loss of medical. This has the potential to ruin contracting for those of us who want it. The freedoms in contracting are beneficial to some of us. Unfortunately again a group of people might ruin this for the pilots who genuinely want and need contract jobs. I have no sympathy for those pilots who choose to work as contractors and then complain about lack of rights. |
Originally Posted by Chris2303
(Post 10506617)
Selfish a little?
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Evan Cullen is being a bit disengenuous by playing the gender card which he knows plays well with the media and politicians particularly of the leftish variety. But the reality is the same with any self employed contractor pilot. If you you're not fit for work you don't get paid whether it be a sprained wrist, a broken leg, flu or a flare up of your gout. Not just pilots but anyone who works for themselves.
So the discussion is exactly how to define self employment and that's not just a matter for aviation but across a lot of business sectors. Not just in Ireland either. This is a much bigger issue than maternity leave for a small handful of women. |
Originally Posted by parkfell
(Post 10505681)
New legislation is needed with anti avoidance provisions to counteract such conduct by the hirer quasi employer. In the UK get your MP involved to bring about change. Get BALPA on board to lobby as well. |
IR35 also has this interesting point...
https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/kno...self-employed/ substitution – could you bring someone else in to complete the contract, or do you need to do the work yourself? If you can’t send someone else, you’re likely to be within IR35 |
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