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-   -   KLM and Delft University to Create New Flying V Airplane with Passengers in Wings (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/622165-klm-delft-university-create-new-flying-v-airplane-passengers-wings.html)

PastTense 3rd Jun 2019 21:08

KLM and Delft University to Create New Flying V Airplane with Passengers in Wings
 

This two-pronged innovative flight concept coined the ‘flying-V’ embraces an entirely different approach to aircraft design, and anticipates a future for sustainable long-distance flight. dutch airliner KLM will be contributing towards the research of the aerospace engineering team at delft university of technology (TU delft) to make this highly energy-efficient long-distance airplane a reality. its aerodynamic shape and reduced weight will allow it to use 20% less fuel than today’s most advanced aircraft — the airbus A350. furthermore, the spectacular, V-shaped design — which takes its name from the gibson guitar model — will accommodate the passenger cabin, the cargo hold and the fuel tanks within its wings.
https://www.designboom.com/technolog...ft-06-03-2019/

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6326c5cca1.jpg

n5296s 3rd Jun 2019 21:40

I wonder what's in this for KLM and why they would attach their name to it?

As a fantasy design, sure, why not. But the little design feature that the centre of lift is way behind the centre of gravity could be a bit of practical problem.

Loose rivets 3rd Jun 2019 22:07

Hmm . . . those white spots on the centre cabin roof - Tear along the dotted line?

So we sit next to the fuel? Oh, and better have a very advanced MCAS to stop the engine airflow from being too curly. "And whatever you do Hoskins, don't round out."

Smythe 3rd Jun 2019 22:36

Similar to the Airbus Flying donut patent:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2e5a4a26fc.jpg
Made for those circular runways...

FrequentSLF 3rd Jun 2019 22:45


Originally Posted by Loose rivets (Post 10485817)
Hmm . . . those white spots on the centre cabin roof - Tear along the dotted line?

So we sit next to the fuel? Oh, and better have a very advanced MCAS to stop the engine airflow from being too curly. "And whatever do do Hoskins, don't round out."

everytime you are in a car you sit next to the fuel better or on top of it

Vilters 3rd Jun 2019 22:53

You might get a nasty surprise when you calculate the drag of such a "thing".
I'd like to see the airflow over such a leading edge and study the vortices that it leaves behind. => Airflow going outboard spanwise!
That's no airplane but some clown's wet dream.

Loose rivets 3rd Jun 2019 23:06


everytime you are in a car you sit next to the fuel better or on top of it
Yes, but I'm near a heavy steel tank with say, 10 gallons in it. A hundred tonnes of fuel next to me? Nah.

Just what surface is giving the lift? Whatever it is, it'll have to counter the AND effect of the thrust.

If I could get a job as consultant for the company, I'd write a report consisting of just one word: Daft.

OldnGrounded 3rd Jun 2019 23:20


Originally Posted by Loose rivets (Post 10485840)
Just what surface is giving the lift? Whatever it is, it'll have to counter the AND effect of the thrust.

And the AND effect of the way-forward CG. And it would be interesting to see the lift vs. drag numbers for the forward sections of what are presumably considered airfoils.

I notice that there is no aircraft manufacturer associated with this "sustainable design." Perhaps KLM is just looking for good PR by sponsoring student engineering projects at a local university.


megan 4th Jun 2019 00:01

Just chopped a "V" from the back of the Boeing


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3f6a537a6d.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c438ebeee4.jpg

Pilot DAR 4th Jun 2019 00:24

I wonder how that leading edge is to be deiced. And, I suppose, like the first few cabin windows of the 747, every one of those cabin windows would have to be able to withstand a bird strike. Both surmountable, I suppose....

But, if there's fire outside on one side during the emergency evacuation, getting everyone out on the other side in 90 seconds could be a challenge, it looks like a long walk from the back of one side to the exit on the other side!

OldnGrounded 4th Jun 2019 00:46


Originally Posted by Pilot DAR (Post 10485877)
I wonder how that leading edge is to be deiced.

Really (really!) big boots with lots of neat little window openings?


pattern_is_full 4th Jun 2019 04:44

Bottom line - KLM gets green PR and likely some tax write-off for the suport, the profs get to publish and not perish, and some students get class credit for the cool promotional CGI work.

Judging the design from the imagery (since we have zero facts about the actual intended engineering and aerodynamics), I would propose that this be viewed more as a lifting body fuselage concept, with blended stub wings outboard the engines for additional (and flexible, slatted/flapped, aileroned) lift. As in the Cranfield U./Boeing X-48 concept Megan shows us :ok: . Minus the "theater" seating, which is what put the customer kibosh on Cranfield's concept as an airliner, although it's still being developed for UAV, tanker or cargo use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-48

In which case the center of body lift may be much further forward than obvious, and the high engines and ND thrust may actually be a plus. (As well as protecting the engines from FOD). Not sure that leading edge icing would be as significant an issue as with a regular airfoil, either. Except on the stub wings.

Safe-T 4th Jun 2019 06:12


Bottom line - KLM gets green PR and likely some tax write-off for the suport, the profs get to publish and not perish, and some students get class credit for the cool promotional CGI work.
Well said, pattern_is_full . Purely green window dressing for KLM and not one media outlet will ask some serious questions. The development and certification challenges for such a design will me enormous and in the current state of the industry I doubt if there is one manufacturer that is willing to spend millions and millions of €/$ on such an endeavour.

DaveReidUK 4th Jun 2019 06:42

Pick a member at random from, say, the A350 design team and there's a good chance that he/she will have come up with something equally unconventional during their university days. That's what students do. It's how they learn.

The Flying V wins the Young Researcher Competition of the Royal Aeronautical Society

Gove N.T. 4th Jun 2019 07:10

What a load of old knockers, naysayers and cynics so far, pretty sad imho.
its a student exercise in engineering and, strangely enough, some students are pretty bright. Why have windows at all on an aircraft when other visual means exist and are used daily. Structural integrity surely and reduced manufacturing costs?

Gove N.T. 4th Jun 2019 07:12


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10486035)
Pick a member at random from, say, the A350 design team and there's a good chance that he/she will have come up with something equally unconventional during their university days. That's what students do. It's how they learn.

The Flying V wins the Young Researcher Competition of the Royal Aeronautical Society

you beat me to it so I don’t include you in the knockers!!

ATC Watcher 4th Jun 2019 08:03

Probably made by the same guy that made the circular runway project ( same NLR bureau)

Why have windows at all on an aircraft when other visual means exist and are used daily.
I was told long ago that it was also for crew to see which side in in flames before opening doors and emergency exits on pax planes. you do not need one in very seat put at certain intervals.

Out of a curiosity, can you transport legally pax in a cargo aircraft (one with no windows at all )

Startledgrapefruit 4th Jun 2019 08:10

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.co...ission-flight/

Think Easy also did another concept design about 7 or 7 years ago also.

Aso 4th Jun 2019 09:04

I think it is great that we have people and companies trying to look forward! Easyjet is trying to push the boundries on electrical flights and now KLM on this. Perfect!

The fact that we are still being sold old crappy 1950's tubes as "new" MAX aircraft is beyond me....

BluSdUp 4th Jun 2019 09:31

20% fuel save vs A350!
 
Now that is worth a shot!
I figure if we can have a leap of this magnitude long haul can eventually be acceptable with regards to the environment,so why not.

DAR
I think that if we get this one flying ice is not a big problem to solve.
Having logged a few 1000 hrs in turboprops fighting ice, only the Beech 100 was ever a problem as it never got over FL200 on the average 180 nm trips we flew.
The B200 and the Do 328TP just punched above it , and in the B 737 for 10 000 hrs plus I never had any issues.
DAR , lets embrace the Young and the idea. And if You have 150 Billion laying around mail it to TU Delft, NL.
The Futures so Bright we got to wear Shads!
Rayban On
Regards
cpt B


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