With all due respect, by flying an approach to ditch has very little to do with visuals (in a simulator). |
Originally Posted by Winemaker
(Post 10405121)
Re simulator training, since the simulator can't generate more than one g how does the experience translate to actual flying? As an ex formula car racer I've experienced more than 2 g lateral load for extended periods of time; a simulator can't generate the head/neck loading and wind impact of the real deal. When flying the g load is generally vertical through the seat so I guess very short bumps above 1 g could be made. What I'm asking, as SLF, is how effective the simulator is at representing real flying conditions.
Rolling into and out of 45 degree banked turns (1.4 G's) the lack does throw me off a bit, but it's a minor distraction. The real difference comes in a dive pullout after a stall or unusual attitude recovery, and there's nothing that can be done about that. |
Wikipedia has just 24 articles on airliner ditchings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...lving_ditching |
Originally Posted by dogcharlietree
(Post 10405415)
Please remember that the main problem in a ditching is impact forces.
So doesn't the old equation E=mv2 come into play. If you double the speed at impact then you have four time the impact forces. Part of the problem is that manuals may provide a procedure for all engines out, and a procedure for ditching. The ditching procedure supposes that you can maintain a certain speed and control the vertical speed with engine thrust. With all engines out you cannot maintain VREF40 and 200 - 300 fpm. Your rate of descent will be more like 500 - 600 fpm. That means that the normal approach speed is too low for a successful flare to ideally zero fpm rate of descent. You need to carry some extra speed during the approach that you then bleed off at low height and minimal vertical speed. Someone asked if model ditching test are done with airliners. Yes, they are required for certification of transport airplanes approved for long overwater flights. |
Originally Posted by Gysbreght
(Post 10405845)
The impact forces are primarily a function of the rate of descent at touchdown. With unlimited runway length the flight speed is far less important. More important is the optimum pitch attitude, which will dictate the horizontal speed at impact.
Part of the problem is that manuals may provide a procedure for all engines out, and a procedure for ditching. The ditching procedure supposes that you can maintain a certain speed and control the vertical speed with engine thrust. With all engines out you cannot maintain VREF40 and 200 - 300 fpm. Your rate of descent will be more like 500 - 600 fpm. That means that the normal approach speed is too low for a successful flare to ideally zero fpm rate of descent. You need to carry some extra speed during the approach that you then bleed off at low height and minimal vertical speed. Someone asked if model ditching test are done with airliners. Yes, they are required for certification of transport airplanes approved for long overwater flights. The reason US 1549 hit so hard in the Hudson is because Sully had run out of airspeed at over 100' AGL and was AOA limited. From that point on the AOA limiter prevented a stall but the lack of available airspeed (AOA) prevented any attempt at flaring to reduce the rate of descent at water impact. The US 1549 investigation mentions using excess airspeed and converting that into a flare to reduce impact forces. Guys have to figure this out beforehand because there's no ability to regain airspeed at low altitude once you squander your airspeed and you have no power available. |
:ok:
You've got it |
Originally Posted by fireflybob
(Post 10404980)
As regards lifejackets as a passenger I'd still like to have one just in case!
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For all the big Boeings,as you have no time to go for a checklist if you hoover up Jonathan Livingstone and his cousins at 2,500' on take off,.ex Dubai,Maldives,Seychelles,Nosy Be,etc.. OPO U30 BFA,.....basically,everything covered by the ditching checklist,below 5000' O override on Gear n Terrain(least useful item but kills the warning) P packs off O outflow valves closed(very good idea,this one) U undercarriage up 30 Flap 30 B Through in a "Brace Brace"..............now the lucky bit,,and once in the water F fuel control switches to cutoff A Apu switch,pull Throw in the perfect manoeuvre to parallel the swell therebye avoiding smacking in to a crest,and..hey presto,there you have it,the perfect ditching... IN YOUR DREAMS! |
At my initial SEP when I joined easyjet it was explained that " a ditching was very unlikely because we don't fly over sea much"
I mentioned that a friend of mine had ditched a large aircraft just off the scotish coast due to fire and my last employer almost put and a/c in the sea off jersey by putting both props to feather instead of cruise. You don't have to be mid Atlantic or lose both engines to end up in the drink! |
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