UK airports inability to deal with snow
 

Simple economics - it's not worth spending a few hundred thousand dollars on the kit , its maintenance and training the operators for something that happens maybe once every 3-5 years and only lasts a day or so

If you live in Russia, Canada or Norway you have to have the kit - in much of the world it's just not worthwhile...............

It all depends on incentive.
Now that the airport is comfortably in private hands rest assured they have done the numbers.
Sunk capital into expensive equipment can't be justified when, on probability the number of days in any given year the airport is affected is below a given threshold.
Much better improving the revenue mix with more shops and car parks. As they say money for nuthin'

Thus as a monopolistic airport owner, they are all rather chuffed that the 'externality' is borne by the poor old taxpayer that built the asset in the first place. The politicians who sold the public assets have long ago spent the money and comfortably retired on the back of the same taxpayer.

Been going on a while and nothing changes...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...irport-admits/

I wondered when this rant would come up.

Put simply, other places in the world get much more snow on a more regular basis, so it makes more financial sense for them to invest in posh expensive snow-clearing equipment to continue normal operations. Here in the UK such events are pretty rare and as such there isn't the business case to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on snow clearers that sit unused for 11 months of the year rotting away with flat batteries and siezed engines and driveshafts and de-icing fluid that goes off because its not been used and is therefore unusable (did you know that? De-icer fluid has a shelf life? Thought not.), which then all costs a hell of a lot of money to put right again... It's actually financial sense to accept that for a very short period of time things will be disrupted but then the world carries on as normal after said short period of disruption has passed.

As for Heathrow, it will always struggle, because it is at capacity. Any small thing will thus completely stuff everything up.

But hey, without understanding all this it's much easier to have a good old rant on PPRuNE. Hope you feel better now.

Maybe it's because it does not snow often enough to make the needed investment worthwhile?

It seems to snow less that it did a few decades ago.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...getting-rarer/

Images originated from Met office. The paper had a 3 image gif. I have extracted the individual frames and also attached the gif below.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a7fdb6ef61.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ae97e515e1.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....48588a280f.png
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....b0e3438bde.gif

Less snow that 20-30 years ago, who'd of thought it. Looks like us young generation do actually have it better.

So money on drone defenses is more useful than money on snow defenses.

I do appreciate the irony of Brits skiing holidays being cancelled or delayed due to snow too!

Heathrow and Gatwick have plenty of snow clearing kit already. Not sure about the smaller airports!

When I was stuck at Heathrow in December 2018 I understood the reason was health and safety on the ramp! The certainly wasn't any damn snow.

It boils down to costs. It's cheaper to face some hours of chaos than having the full kit and trained staff ready 24/7.

Meester proach (cracking username!)

Sorry if I came across badly. As said elsewhere it all boils down to cost sadly. It's not lazy, it is simply a balance (as with everything) between cost and benefit. Drones was simply ignorance I believe, whereas winter ops is different. Believe me I've been there (with screaming toddlers) when my holiday's been delayed but nothing can be done!

"I’m sure you’d feel more incentive if it was your holiday delayed or ruined"

I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't be surprised either. When I travel on business or pleasure I think about the weather, public holidays, strikes etc - if i MUST be somewhere on a specific date I add in some extra hours or days - and that applies to cars/trains/planes

It's amazing so much of the ssytem works the way it does - but we've come to expect perfection every time, all the time - and that is ... unlikely I'm afraid

I wasn't there.. But, as someone that has suffered a broken leg slipping on ice whilst working on the ramp at Gatwick; maybe they had a good reason to halt operations. There was no damn snow then either! :*

Airports in recents years have spent millions on snow clearing equipment etc but you can have all the equipment in the World but ultimately you cannot operate a runway when it continues to snow heavily. You also need to appreciate the people & training that is required to operate the machinery and the fact you cannot have staff trained up by standing by all year long in case it snows. In other Countries it snows for months hence the investment in personnel is worth while but in the UK the guys and girls operating the equipment will be drafted in from other departments across the Airport.

Also, airlines can take their share of the blame when they don't "spend enough money" on their de-icing contracts and can't run their own schedule based on the number of rigs they pay for...

Some airlines rightfully cut down their schedule based on a forecast even if the snow doesn't arrive because its absolute mayhem in terminals when flights get cancelled on the day. Last winter one airline got that wrong and cancelled their schedule on the day of the snow event despite the fact we got the runway open and was available throughout the whole day. You can imagine the chaos in the terminal and on aircraft that had already boarded their flights. That hadn't nothing to do with the airport.

Not my sentiment when our flight from Frankfurt to Hong Kong was delayed due winter weather, we lost our connecting flight to Manila, therefore the day's last flight to Busuanga. Had to find hotel in Manila for party of eleven, then the same number of new air tickets, lost one prepaid day at the resort.
Travel insurance is a good thing.
Per

We being an island have a maritime climate whereas the continent has continental type climate.
This means our snow is wetter and heavier than the snow falling on the continent which is much drier and lighter.

As a result:
You find the ski resorts are on the continent not the the UK as light powder type dry snow is easier and more pleasant to ski in while heavy clogs of mush wet snow that we get in the UK is not.
Added to which the dryness of the atmosphere makes it less unpleasant to humans, so - 20C in Austria "feels" not as bad as -5C in the damp wet UK
Light dry snow is easier to clear and to snow-blow away - unlike the snow in the UK.
We have to snowplough it off the roads and runways etc - that takes a lot of time and effort/energy to move it.
Added to which if you don't move the wet UK snow off roads it is then compacted down and freezes into sheet ice which is now much more difficult to move and more difficult to gain traction over. Hence why our roads become a nightmare in snow.

It is literally a different type of snow....

This morning in Helsinki, from stop at the deicing stand to the moment the Embraer 190 was moving again took 3,5 minutes. There were four trucks operating two for the wings and two for the tail.In my opinion that was pretty effective...

But yes, HEL has to have this capability, no question about it.

If you have one runway and it's snowing you have to "close" it as you can't land aircraft on it while it's blocked

Passengers / media just react to "runway closed"

While in reality it's a team of fire men working hard to clear tons of frozen water from area 45m x1600m in conditions 95% of people being critical of them would not step foot in

It is said that the Inuit people of the Canadian arctic have seven different words for the different types of snow. Yup, 'makes sense to me! I have literally spent more money on snow clearing/grass cutting equipment for my home runway, than either of my three planes cost me. Snow clearing cost is an investment you can choose to make or not, based upon your sense of whether you need to fly when it's snowy or not, and your guess as to how often there will be enough snow to need to clear. Three winters ago, I only cleared snow three times all winter, this winter, very different!

Airport operators will serve the needs of the users of the airport, who will have to pay for those services. If you want the runways always clear, it can be done - for a cost! But a part of that cost is capital equipment, which will just sit and cost money if not used, so it's a business case as to whether it's worth the cost, if heavy snow is infrequent.

Here in Canada, we can expect that once it snows, melting away quickly is unlikely, 'cause it'll stay cold, so better clear it. In other places, even a heavy snowfall will likely met away in a day or so, so its a big cost to clear it early, knowing that it will melt away anyway. That kind of snow, as mentioned, will be wet and heavy = extra work to clear. The very cold not likely to melt away soon snow is light and fluffy, and easy to snowblow away - once you buy the snowblower!

Not just here. First time I flew into PHL we were one of the last ones in before it closed for several days. Yes it was a big dump of snow but on a part of the world much more used to it than us and it still had them closed for nearly a week.

From what I hear BRS pretty much had snow non stop most of the morning into lunchtime, maybe even later. That coupled with having adequate equipment for our climate and how often we get snow, it's pretty much a losing battle when the snow is still coming. Don't forget BRS is on top of a hill and is an Airfield originally desgined as a bad weather training airfield.
BRS reopened in the early evening but the Airlines had already cancelled pretty much every flight for the rest of the day, with the exception of EI and the evening inbound KLM.
Questions are now being asked by the public why they couldn't operate some flights from other Airports. There were EZY aircraft in BHX and CWL. KLM did operate the AM flight from CWL and BM had an aircraft in SOU and BHX. Frustrations were probably a lot high because of the increased rugby travellers.

Yes, it does, probably once a year though.

Maybe it's time next time runway works are carried out to install subterranean heat sources, keeping the ground/runway just warm enough to keep melting the snow on the rare occasions it does fall in theUK.
Small investment, lasting results, no training required, no machines to maintain and crews to train

A mix of:
1. Denial. Color pictures about the snow statistics back in 1770 while snow disruption happened in the UK this year, the previous year, the year before that and the year before that. It will happen in 2020 too. What will you do if the UK gets the next vortex thingy? Close the country for weeks?
2. Mistification of snow. Special wet snow in the UK vs. dry snow in Europe? BS. You get both everywhere (and the other 20 types). You need to be ready to clean both. Guys blabbing in he telly about the end of the world with hardly flakes coming down around them? Come on. Should teach people what a winter tyre is and to have a blanket/shovel/food and a full fuel tank at all times if you don't want to be the Florida gators frozen in the swamp (thinking WTF??).
3. Different scales. Most of the times your "heavy" snow is not really heavy snow. Your "freezing" weather is not very freezing weather. Your feared snow "accumulation" happens in 2 mins in Helsinki. Yes, it's possible to operate airports in heavy snow (for even days/weeks of it), see Finland, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Russia etc. Basically any place on Earth spending on it, planning with it and training staff to deal with it.
4. Economic excuses. Yes, ploughs, de-icing rigs and liguid are bloody expensive. As does landing lights, ILS, terminals, security staff etc but you still pay those to ensure safe and continuous operation. Airlines know that is expensive but they are willing to pay for them to avoid disruptions as they do in all corners of the continent. Buy/operate them and charge it on the airlines for God sake as does every airport in Europe. They will be happy to pay for it if they see something on return instead of the repeated meltdowns. A LOT better than shelling out the 250 EUR to each pax (if you fly to a country where the judge does not accept 1 cm of snow as the reason for an airport closure).
5. Training of staff. Can't do effective snow cleaning/de-icing ops with people who need winter preparation memos like "it will be cold", "you will need to wear gloves and warm clothing" etc. Send them for a training in Oslo, Stockholm or Helsinki to get the grasp of the task and how to deal with it. Not only the de-icers and the plough drivers. You get the news of fuelers refusing to get to the apron in 2mm of snow and you don't know whether you should laugh or cry.

PHL used to be used as leverage by the unions during labor disputes that had nothing to do with the airport itself. They are very capable of dealing with major snow events if they feel like it, provided that the Eagles are not playing.

TBSC said "Training of staff. Can't do effective snow cleaning/de-icing ops with people who need winter preparation memos like "it will be cold", "you will need to wear gloves and warm clothing" etc."

Hit the nail on the head, the 'elf and safety culture is so restrictive, however if you go to some parts of the world and see the blatant disregard for common sense or the rules it makes you cringe.

I think it's worse:)

I knew there was less snow on the ground from my own experience. I went looking for supporting evidence to post here since my anecdotes are not strong on their own.

I of course cannot recall how many days of snow we had in any year however I have taken part in several different snow-essential activities over the years.

As a child I went sledging at some point every winter it seemed. It would snow and there would be a week of sledging. Then it was not every year or the snow melted very quickly.

After I started driving I went snow driving on local hill roads in the night every year, then not every year, then almost never due to a lack of snow. What fun.

At a relatively late age I started skiing in Scotland, with good snow cover every year. The snow was fickle, sometimes there was snow in the west, sometimes in the east, but there was almost always snow for skiing in the winter. Within a very few years there was almost no reliable snow. I gave up skiing in Scotland.

I moved my skiing to Europe. Tignes in the French alps was open for skiing 365 days a year on the glacier there. Search for [tignes ski 365 jours par an] and click Translate this page. This season the glacier opened as follows:

29/09/2018: opening of the fall skiing season on the Grande Motte glacier
05/05/2019: closing of Tignes' glacier.[1]

That's about seven months. It's not that there is no demand. People love skiing.

A number of years ago (2005 ish) at Tignes a local guide pointed out a huge cablecar intermediate tower that he explained that his grandfather had worked on constructing. He said that the glacier ice had to be dug away to expose the bedrock for the foundations. As he pointed at it, the glacier was 100ft below the base of the pylon. Looking at a webcam image today it looks as if the glacier is quite a bit more than 100ft below the pylon. See first image below.

At Tignes the glacier is now "preserved" by creating snow trapping trenches. This was not necessary previously. See second image below. Again from a live webcam.

There is a lot less snow round here.

[1] https://en.tignes.net/what-to-see-do...inter-ski-area

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f9c44f2e3b.png
Pylon is near centre of frame. When built the base of the pylon was buried in the glacier by a small amount. The entire outcrop was within the ice of the glacier.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9ea7a1b9f2.png

Indeed. I used to work for an Australian owned but UK run company, and almost died laughing when they sent out a 'winter preparation pack' to all stations globally. It was comically simple and contained information any 4-year old kid in my country would have known; that winter is cold, snow is slippery and ice even more so. If that's the level of communication you need to get the point across, I'm afraid there's not much hope.

It's also worth mentioning that it's the airports who'll have to finance the equipment, but the airlines who'll be bearing the compensation (EU261) claims. That's hardly an incentive for the airports to do anything about it, and as long as there's a demand for the airport to provide its service, there's not much apart from moaning and bickering the airlines can do about it. Sure, the airport could raise fares to finance the purchases, but that'll result in even louder moaning and bickering. Nothing's quite so short-sighted as airline ground operations; eyes are firmly fixed on the next quarter and money's tighter than a tight thing.

The way it works is that the airport uses an event like this to raise its rates, then next year cuts the snow removal capability/deicing fluid, etc. as a cost cutting measure. Repeat as necessary. The economic argument will never be there. Snow is an act of God. For-profit outfits don't do God's work.

Interesting range of views, some of which have hit the nail on the head.

When talking about the UK, one only has to remember that pretty well all its airports are in the private sector. At the end of the day, it all comes down to shareholder value and the bottom line.

You don't have to look any further than that. Get used to it.

UK Elf & Safety is indeed ridiculous at times.

However, it all comes down to money... As airports are privately operated, they are free to choose the limit of what kind of disruption is economically viable, just as the airlines do. How many fail-operational B737NGs operate in Africa or Australia? Probably zero, because it makes exactly zero economical sense to pay a lot of money for the one time a year (or decade) you will need it. Or how many Cat 3B installations are there in those parts of the world?

I really don't see any sense in buying equipment to ensure Scandinavia-style winter readiness in UK, which gets 1cm of snow for 3 days a year.

Surprised nobody has blamed Brexit yet!

I liked jimjim1s reference to "the fall skiing season " :)

That's how I do it...............

Exactly - you prepare for what you REALLY need - a couple of days disruption every 5 years is not a big issue. There'd be a load of posts about "waste", "corruption", excessive spending", "people paid to sit around for years for something that never happens" etc etc if the UK did bring in Norwegian levels of snow clearance preparation

Re BRS; it is a matter of investment but also practice. I was based there in the 90s and recall one chaotic day in particular, with a snow mover moving snow from A to B and the next one that rocked up moved it back again; total confusion. Eventually took off bound for ABZ where the snow was much much worse and all the kit was moving in harmony, keeping runway and ramp clear. Relatively normal turn around and back to BRS chaos. So far as I could see much of the kit was the same it was the organisation.